Phx-Suns.Net

1tinsoldier wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

carey wrote:Things are not going well for Dallas atm. Cuban was just fined for his comments on tanking.

What did he say?

he told players tanking was their best option

600k is an awfully large penalty for speaking what many teams are obviously thinking every year
but being professional and responsible is the role of team owner
just like protecting your employees from harassment

I think his fine was due mostly to the fact he said it to the players. Telling players that the organization is better off if they lose is a huge step further than anyone else has gone to date (as far as I know).

Yep, as Jared Dudley said, "When keeping it real goes wrong."

yes, when it passes from management to the players on the court, you're officially ripping off the fans and NBA might as well be spelled WWE

Come on he said what everyone thinks and does. The Suns openly tanked last year. If they have a problem with it it’s on them to change the rules.

specialsauce wrote:Come on he said what everyone thinks and does. The Suns openly tanked last year. If they have a problem with it it’s on them to change the rules.

What the Suns did last year was really no different than what's been done for decades now (resting old players and injury-risk veterans) but at no time did an owner tell his players that losing was best for the team. It's not what everyone thinks and does. As long as the coach is not actively trying to lose and as long as the players on the court are trying to win, the illusion of "purity" of the game remains intact. Cuban went beyond that.

Plus he has a laundry list of big fines in the past -

14Nov00 - $5,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
20Nov00 - $15,000 - Confronting and verbally abusing NBA officials
22Feb01 - $25,000 - Verbally abusing and publicly criticizing NBA officials
4Jan01 - $250,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
16Feb01 - $10,000 - Entering the court during an altercation
13Apr01 - $100,000 - Derogatory conduct to NBA officials
1Nov01 - $100,000 - Sitting along baseline during a game
8Jan02 - $500,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
17Mar04 - $10,000 - Improper comments to Josh Howard about Bruce Bowen of SAS
9Oct04 - $100,000 - Criticism of NBA rules
10May06 - $200,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
16Jan09 - $25,000 - Inappropriate interaction with J.R. Smith of DEN druring game
29Mar09 - $25,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
22May10 - $100,000 - Violation of NBA tampering rules
3Feb12 - $75,000 - Criticism of NBA officiating
8Jan13 - $50,000 - Tweets critical of NBA officiating
18Apr14 - $100,000 - Confronting NBA officials after a game
7Jul15 - $25,000 - Public comments on free agents Wes Matthews of UTH and DeAndre Jordan of LAC
21Feb18 - $600,000 - Public comments on tanking

EternalChampion wrote:

specialsauce wrote:Come on he said what everyone thinks and does. The Suns openly tanked last year. If they have a problem with it it’s on them to change the rules.

What the Suns did last year was really no different than what's been done for decades now (resting old players and injury-risk veterans) but at no time did an owner tell his players that losing was best for the team. It's not what everyone thinks and does. As long as the coach is not actively trying to lose and as long as the players on the court are trying to win, the illusion of "purity" of the game remains intact. Cuban went beyond that.

That’s exactly it, it’s an illusion. Everybody knows teams tank so just say it. All this side stepping and calling it “strategic resting” is disrespectful to fans intelligence. It’s blatant.

specialsauce wrote:

EternalChampion wrote:

specialsauce wrote:Come on he said what everyone thinks and does. The Suns openly tanked last year. If they have a problem with it it’s on them to change the rules.

What the Suns did last year was really no different than what's been done for decades now (resting old players and injury-risk veterans) but at no time did an owner tell his players that losing was best for the team. It's not what everyone thinks and does. As long as the coach is not actively trying to lose and as long as the players on the court are trying to win, the illusion of "purity" of the game remains intact. Cuban went beyond that.

That’s exactly it, it’s an illusion. Everybody knows teams tank so just say it. All this side stepping and calling it “strategic resting” is disrespectful to fans intelligence. It’s blatant.

Sure, it's an illusion but going that next step further opens up a can of worms that no professional league wants any part of. Especially given that the NBA and other leagues will all be looking at increasing revenues through legalized sports betting over the next few years. Allowing or encouraging coaches and players to lose on purpose makes for an uneven betting field that the wrong professionals will surely take an interest in.

They already allow it. It happens every year. Not speaking about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

specialsauce wrote:They already allow it. It happens every year. Not speaking about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The league is currently allowing teams to do what they believe is in their best long-term interest (trading away veterans for future help, resting veterans, playing raw kids that clearly aren't NBA ready etc) but they would never sanction players and coaches actively trying to lose. And Cuban's public comments implied that he was encouraging the players to throw games.

EternalChampion wrote:

specialsauce wrote:They already allow it. It happens every year. Not speaking about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The league is currently allowing teams to do what they believe is in their best long-term interest (trading away veterans for future help, resting veterans, playing raw kids that clearly aren't NBA ready etc) but they would never sanction players and coaches actively trying to lose. And Cuban's public comments implied that he was encouraging the players to throw games.

The Bulls sitting Robin Lopez and Justin Holiday in favor of the guys on the end of the bench the rest of the way is an obvious tank. They might as well tell their players they want to lose. Do you think the Suns players didn't recognize that the organization was actively hoping for them to lose last year when they benched Chandler and Bledsoe? The only difference is that Cuban verbalized it to his players. It doesn't need to be said, the actions speak for themselves.

yes, ss, everyone, including the player's are aware of all the many obvious ways that teams tank.
it's nice that you want to get all George Washington about it and bring tanking out in the open
but it's a whole bunch of illusions that keeps us watching the bouncing ball

EternalChampion wrote:

specialsauce wrote:They already allow it. It happens every year. Not speaking about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The league is currently allowing teams to do what they believe is in their best long-term interest (trading away veterans for future help, resting veterans, playing raw kids that clearly aren't NBA ready etc) but they would never sanction players and coaches actively trying to lose. And Cuban's public comments implied that he was encouraging the players to throw games.

This is the key point. Resting players for dubious injuries is fine. Trading away good vets for young rooks and picks is fine. The league explicitly allows this. But the moment you walk into that locker room and say, "Yeah guys, we are tanking, it is in our best interest to lose tonight," that isn't just a difference of messaging. It isn't just saying something explicitly vs implicitly. No matter who is on the roster, they are expected to try their hardest to win every game.

To me the term "tanking" is being used for some things I wouldn't include. If a team is manipulating their personnel in order to lose, that's tanking. Sitting your veterans in order to get a look at younger players isn't tanking to me. It's just a logical step to take when your team is out of the hunt for the playoffs. You see the same thing in baseball when teams play their young players after the September call-ups are made. You play your young players hoping to develop them and if they win or lose that's really secondary. Tanking is a plan centered solely around losing games and improving your draft position.

Developing = playing young players even when they are making mistakes that cost you games.
Tanking = intentionally making your roster weaker so that you get better draft position.
Throwing Games = telling players or coaches not to try to win games.

O_Gardino wrote:Developing = playing young players even when they are making mistakes that cost you games.
Tanking = intentionally making your roster weaker so that you get better draft position.
Throwing Games = telling players or coaches not to try to win games.

This is good. We are developing this year. Last year after the all Star break we tanked. Cuban implied that he wanted players to throw games.

1tinsoldier wrote:yes, ss, everyone, including the player's are aware of all the many obvious ways that teams tank.
it's nice that you want to get all George Washington about it and bring tanking out in the open
but it's a whole bunch of illusions that keeps us watching the bouncing ball

Totally ridiculous

Let's play nice, folks. 1tin, I think sauce's posts about tanking were just fine, and you could have made your point in a more respectful way.

Good one Robin
https://twitter.com/vgoodwill/status/966830368597905408

Bulls had a 3 point lead and the ball with 15 seconds to go and managed to lose tonight.