Old and busted comes to mind. We already have health concerns... Boogie is useless.
I definitely here you regarding injury concerns! But again, these suggested players I've mentioned in Cousins and Harrell would really only be adding depth in replacing the salary slots of: Cousins for Bol Bol (who doesn't play at all anyways), and Harrell for Okogie (a one for one) https://stathead.com/tiny/ZDyCt
And while he may not hit threes as well as okogie or even free throws, he does absolutely bring more size, defense, rebounding, blocks,points, VORP, physicality at the three spot and can also offer small ball 5 matchup options and positional versatility options at the 3, 4, 0r the 5? And honestly, I'm not that worried about the spot shooting when the other trade offs defensively and in terms of size and physicality would clearly be better though. Harrell is also only 29 (only 4 yrs older than Okogie) which isn't really all that old for a wing/forward all things considered.
And Cousins replacing Bols' salary slot would provide insurance behind Nurkic, who at some point will miss significant time with injury. What happens then alternatively having only Eubanks and Azuibuke on the roster as available 5 options? Cousins would also offer more size, physicality, toughness, rebounding, production, and most importantly be an enforcer against those teams wanting to bully us given his reputation. Cousins is only 33 by the way, and only a season or two ago (21-22 season) he still offered production of:
8 points and 5 rebounds in 13 minutes. But his per 36 (worst case scenario if Nurkic goes down with injury at some point) was still 23 points 14 rebounds 4 assists and 1 block. Not that we'd likely need him that much for offensive production IF the big three come back together at some point. But even at 33, his value to us would be mostly predicated around his size, rebounding, physicality and toughness (edge) both he and Harrell could add on the cheap while also subsequently allowing us to move players like Bates Diop and/or watanabe to the 3 instead of having to play smaller against bigger more physical and aggressive lineups.
I'd agree with you that I'd much prefer higher end impact additions if possible. But i'm just not sure we have the assets or flexibility to obtain higher tier options??
Interesting! I'd be interested to hear why you'd hard pass on both/either at a vet min pricetag given their experience, size increase to our frontcourt and physicality that our team already sorely lacks. We could really use a bigger frontcourt and more physicality and some enforcers on this team considering how aggressive and physical opposing teams have been with us. And for only the minimum, to me at least, it seems somewhat a bargain! So what am I theoretically missing here man?
Cousins hasn’t played in the nba in over a year. You're right that at the minimum it’s probably not a big issue, but I just don’t think he’s got anything left. He’d have been on a roster if he was good. Harrell has shown he doesn’t hold up in the playoffs. He can probably score some points off the bench in the regular season, but his defense is bad. He wouldn’t play in the playoffs.
Now if we’re just replacing Bol, then no it won’t hurt, I just don’t think it helps. So maybe hard pass was too much. Soft pass.
Fair assessment
Re: Suns News: Week 8 (12/11 - 12/17)
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:00 pm
by Shabazz
Harrell tore his ACL this summer. He's not playing this season.
Any thoughts towards discussion on what the suns greatest needs are at/around the coming December 15th trade deadline. Or even what realistic trades we might pull off to shore up our positional weaknesses considering the vry limited value of our current assets? I'm really not very inclined to want to attach our few remaining picks (2nds) in a trade as we'll definitely need all the cost controlled talent and depth we can find or acquire.
I'm more leaning towards looking to cut/waive Saben Lee and Azuibuke, and then package Little or Allen along with Okogie and Watanabe in order to open up spots to sign:
DeMarcus Cousins, Montrez Harrell, Nerlens Noel to vet mins and RJ nembhard (Gleague) on a two way deal for more balanced positional depth! Nembhard could focus on playmaking and game tempo/ turnover reduction. Harrell would replace Okogie at the 3 giving us more size, physicality, rebounding and positional defense. Demarcus Cousins would bring size, production, rebounding, physicality at the backup 5, and also offer the versatility to play the 4 or 5. But could give us much better size against bigger lineups playing alongside Nurkic in specific matchups. Best of all, he'd come really cheap which fits our current financial constraints. And signing Nerlens Noel on a vet min would give us a bigger,longer, more mobile and proven rim protecting option to Nurkic and/or Eubanks. Now If adding Noel seems a bit redundent for our backup 5 needs, we could simply sign Kai Jones (at 6'11) to play the 4 in a very simplified rebounding/shotblocking defensive role addressing our size, athleticism and defensive mobility issues? And we could also play him at the 4 in matchups alongside of Cousins ( at the backup 5) for more size and dominance off the bench.
I've specifically chosen players like Cousins and Harrell for their toughness, physicality, and veteran presence to help counter the physicality other teams keep using against us! Both players can represent enforcers in these situations as well as coming really cheap and having something to prove. The other bonus to this would be us now being able to play players like Bates Diop, and Allen (or whomever we trade for really) at their proper positions from the added frontcourt size! Lastly, After accomplishing these signings, I'd really consider packaging Allen or Little along with Eubanks and Okogie AND MAYBE a future 2nd to:
Indy for McConnell/Toppin/Nwora.
To Chicago for Caruso/Craig/rights to either Phillips or Sanogo.
To Brooklyn for Oneale/ Sharpe/Smith Jr.
To Charlotte for Nik Richards/ JT Thor/ Ish Smith/ rights to Leaky Black.
To Philly for Covington/ Oubre (or Beverly)/ rights to Council 4th or Terq Smith. I'd choose Oubre as a 6th man scoring option off the bench alongside of Gordon. Or Pat Bev I know...........I know the hate is understandable! But I'd choose him as our goon/enforcer/agitator that we're really missing.
I don't really have any interest in trading Allen. He's a great fit. Caruso would be cost prohibitive, and the rest seem like our junk for your junk.
Agree with you on Allen! I really like the value he's brought back from the Ayton trade. I really only included him in trade ideas because I currently view him as our best trade asset in terms of overal percieved value and also salary exchange to reach equitable contract exchange considrations. But I would if possible prefer to keep him if at all possible and maybe swap him out with Gordon and little. I just don't personally see Gordon or even Watanabe returning the same level of value as Allen currently, as well as the needed salary exchange matching considerations too. I mentioned Caruso because he's an exceptional defender (1st team all defense)which we could definitely use), is very familiar with Vogel and his system, and is under contract at a very similar amount to Allen himself, albeit only around one million more. I get that he's not the shooter that Allen is by far, But again, I'm really not as concerned about our offense as much as our defense if our big three can get healthy and the redundancy already at shooting guard and moreso once D Lee also returns. I also think (personally) that he's not all that cost prohibitive considering his salary is only around 1 million more than Allen currently AND he's at least under contract for next season, which Allen is not. So having him under contractual control would give us more options than with Allen. But if we could substitute Allen for Little and fillers for him in a Chicago trade, I'd prefer that obviously keeping both. I'm just not sure we could get him with sending out comparable value in return for Caruso honestly. Which is why I included him for these trade hypotheticals.
As for the rest, I'm just proposing trading players who either don't play much if at all for otheer options that might play more and excel in specific roles given their respective skillsets and current roles. But value for value, you're not wrong in your perspective of it being more or less a "junk for junk" swap outside of the low tier value centerpiece exchanges of Caruso, McConnell, Oneale, Richards, Covington/Oubre. I wish we had more available value/assets or even contract salaries to offer for much better options? Not to be pessimistic, I'm just not sure I see it though man.
Harrell tore his ACL this summer. He's not playing this season.
That sucks, But thanks for the information man. On to better alternative options then? Perhaps Tucker gets bought out if the rumors are true, and we should have a potential inside track there given his history with us, etc. Or maybe one of JaMychael Green, KZ Okpala, Moe Harkless, Isiah Roby, Wenyen Gabriel or my favorite Feron Hunt if not a better SF option via trade? If we can add size to our frontcourt, then we should be able to slide Bates Diop down to the three for additional size, and Allen to the 1 or two interchangably alongside of Gordon perhaps? Overall, I'm just hoping to add more size, physicality, toughness and defense (if possible) to our frontcourt depth to counter the physicality and aggression opposing teams are throwing at us.
Old and busted comes to mind. We already have health concerns... Boogie is useless.
I definitely here you regarding injury concerns! But again, these suggested players I've mentioned in Cousins and Harrell would really only be adding depth in replacing the salary slots of: Cousins for Bol Bol (who doesn't play at all anyways), and Harrell for Okogie (a one for one) https://stathead.com/tiny/ZDyCt
And while he may not hit threes as well as okogie or even free throws, he does absolutely bring more size, defense, rebounding, blocks,points, VORP, physicality at the three spot and can also offer small ball 5 matchup options and positional versatility options at the 3, 4, 0r the 5? And honestly, I'm not that worried about the spot shooting when the other trade offs defensively and in terms of size and physicality would clearly be better though. Harrell is also only 29 (only 4 yrs older than Okogie) which isn't really all that old for a wing/forward all things considered.
And Cousins replacing Bols' salary slot would provide insurance behind Nurkic, who at some point will miss significant time with injury. What happens then alternatively having only Eubanks and Azuibuke on the roster as available 5 options? Cousins would also offer more size, physicality, toughness, rebounding, production, and most importantly be an enforcer against those teams wanting to bully us given his reputation. Cousins is only 33 by the way, and only a season or two ago (21-22 season) he still offered production of:
8 points and 5 rebounds in 13 minutes. But his per 36 (worst case scenario if Nurkic goes down with injury at some point) was still 23 points 14 rebounds 4 assists and 1 block. Not that we'd likely need him that much for offensive production IF the big three come back together at some point. But even at 33, his value to us would be mostly predicated around his size, rebounding, physicality and toughness (edge) both he and Harrell could add on the cheap while also subsequently allowing us to move players like Bates Diop and/or watanabe to the 3 instead of having to play smaller against bigger more physical and aggressive lineups.
I'd agree with you that I'd much prefer higher end impact additions if possible. But i'm just not sure we have the assets or flexibility to obtain higher tier options??
I agree 100% we don't have a lot of flexibility but appreciate your passion and interest in trying to get OUR team better.
Are we sure Beal will sit out tomorrow? I've seen reports of him being "ready" for a week or so now, but the schedule and being cautious are reasons he's just getting back tonight. So it seems like there's at least a decent chance he plays again tomorrow.
Are we sure Beal will sit out tomorrow? I've seen reports of him being "ready" for a week or so now, but the schedule and being cautious are reasons he's just getting back tonight. So it seems like there's at least a decent chance he plays again tomorrow.
They ( suns media- Gerald Bourget, coaches etc) were mentioning something along the lines of cautionary minute restrictions of around 20-25 minutes max tonight, sitting tommorow against the Nets (but Durant would likely play tommorow. And then tentatively making the big 3 available together for the very first time on Friday against the Knicks providing Beal handles his minutes well??
Re: Suns News: Week 8 (12/11 - 12/17)
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:47 pm
by TOO
Just play the games man, this caution stuff sucks, either you're back or you're not. Definitely one of things old school players did better.
Over nine years with the Phoenix Suns, Devin Booker has had 110 teammates. No Phoenix player has had more.
Steve Nash had 101 teammates during his two stints in Phoenix. Shawn Marion, poised to go into the organization’s Ring of Honor on Friday night, had 83. Alvan Adams had 72.
Booker has played with Archie Goodwin and Jordan Goodwin, Grayson Allen and Alan Williams, but Tuesday night marked the first regular-season contest in which he’s played with Bradley Beal. And this is significant for one major reason: Booker needs playmaking help.
Opponents recently have changed how they defend Booker and the Suns. On Friday, Sacramento went to a box-and-one, something coach Mike Brown said he just kind of “threw out there” during the Kings’ win in Phoenix.
On Tuesday, Golden State blitzed Booker as he crossed halfcourt, Jonathan Kuminga on one side, Stephen Curry on the other. Sometimes it worked, other times it did not. The Suns ultimately beat the Warriors, 119-116, but they didn’t look sharp doing so, and they nearly let the game slip away in the final minutes.
“Yeah, we got to stop doing that s— to ourselves,” coach Frank Vogel said of the late sloppiness and lack of defensive focus. “It’s getting old.”
This is a strange time in the desert. Fans and media have been stuck in wait-and-see mode for what seems like an eternity. The Suns last season traded for Kevin Durant and then lost him after three games to a sprained ankle. The Suns in June traded for Beal — only to see him miss 19 of this season’s first 23 games with a back issue.
Look at it like this: Since the Suns acquired Durant on Feb. 9, they have fielded what was considered their regular starting five just 15 times in 59 games, a stretch that includes last season’s second half, the playoffs and the first 23 games of this season. Even with the Suns at 13-10, folks here are antsy.
Phoenix’s “Big 3” of Booker, Durant and Beal have not yet played together but they are expected to soon. If Durant returns from an ankle issue, it could happen Wednesday against Brooklyn. Or Friday against the Knicks. (This assumes nothing else goes wrong with those three. Josh Okogie, the Suns’ best perimeter defender, left Tuesday’s game with an injured hip.)
“I think you guys are probably more excited about it than us,” Beal said when asked about the possibility of the “Big 3” debut. “We’re definitely excited to get back on the floor with each other, but it’s a long year for us. We lace ’em up every night regardless of who’s with us or who’s not.”
The importance of Booker cannot be understated. The Suns are 10-4 with him, 3-6 without him. Once viewed as one of the game’s top shooting guards, he’s emerged as one of the league’s top playmakers, averaging 27.7 points and 8 assists. Against Golden State, Booker had 32 points and 7 assists. He produced whenever Phoenix needed him.
You know who saw this coming?
Larry Bird.
In the build-up to the 2015 NBA Draft, Booker was viewed as a shooter in the Klay Thompson mold. Coming off the bench on a loaded Kentucky team, playing off the ball, Booker dished just 42 assists in 816 total minutes in his lone college season. In Kentucky’s Final Four loss to Wisconsin, Booker played 19 minutes but had the ball in his hands for just 38 seconds — total.
Vogel was head coach at Indiana that season. The Pacers entered the draft in need of size, but Bird, the team’s president, made it clear how he felt about Booker. “Yeah, Larry Bird told me about Devin Booker long before I ever heard of him,” Vogel said. “He was very, very high on him.”
The Pacers drafted Myles Turner out of Texas at 11. Booker went two picks later to Phoenix.
Asked if he saw signs back then that Booker could turn into an elite playmaker, Vogel said the work ethic and mindset were impossible to miss. “(But) to see him develop into the type of assassin that he’s become? I don’t think anybody probably forecasted that, or he would’ve been the No. 1 overall pick.”
(Judge for yourself. The top five players selected in the 2015 draft: Karl-Anthony Towns, D’Angelo Russell, Jahlil Okafor, Kristaps Porzingis and Mario Hezonja.)
This season, Booker has thrived with balance. He knows when to distribute. He knows when to score. In Tuesday’s second quarter, Booker read the half-court trap, threw over the top to a teammate, who then found an open shooter on the wing. The Suns drilled 3s on four consecutive first-half possessions, strong looks that started with Booker realizing he couldn’t beat the double team off the dribble.
“You don’t typically see double teams before halfcourt and box-and-one defenses,” Booker said. “Even at the end of the game, when teams full-court press, it’s not a typical NBA defense. (I’m) still trying to learn ways to figure it out. Obviously, if we’re all healthy, teams will have a harder time of throwing those defenses at us.”
This is where Beal comes in. The more comfortable he gets, the more playmaking help he can provide. In his first game since Nov. 12, Beal on Tuesday had 16 points and 3 assists. He hit 5 of 12 from the field. In his 12th season, Beal said playing is like “riding a bike.” He just needs to get his conditioning right. But for one night, he said it was good to help relieve some of the stress Booker faced.
The next step is to get Durant back on the court. Outside of practice, the trio hasn’t played together since preseason.
“I think we all have a good idea of what it could look like, but we got to put it together,” Beal said.
Not a bad read; doesn't really reveal any new insights, but glad to see Booker getting his flowers from The Athletic.
Re: Suns News: Week 8 (12/11 - 12/17)
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:42 pm
by Kryptonic
FF, you're boy was on Old man and the 3
Re: Suns News: Week 8 (12/11 - 12/17)
Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:42 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
I might get around to listening to that, but unlikely.
I really just want to know if Gordon is planning to continue front rimming every shot he takes within 5 feet of the rim.
I might get around to listening to that, but unlikely.
I really just want to know if Gordon is planning to continue front rimming every shot he takes within 5 feet of the rim.
Do the stats really back that up? I cringe when Gordon pulls up for a 3-pointer when he's like 15 feet behind the line. But otherwise he seems to be a fairly adept shooter and scorer.
I might get around to listening to that, but unlikely.
I really just want to know if Gordon is planning to continue front rimming every shot he takes within 5 feet of the rim.
Do the stats really back that up? I cringe when Gordon pulls up for a 3-pointer when he's like 15 feet behind the line. But otherwise he seems to be a fairly adept shooter and scorer.
