Phx-Suns.Net

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:19 am

I know there were reports he turned down more money elsewhere to start and showcase himself as a starter on a "contender". I don't know that he would've started on those other teams. NY was one of them and he definitely wouldn't have started there.

But really, every team in the league knows who he is and what he does and they also know our roster is a mess. Can't blame him for all of our problems but he's also getting exposed badly as a starter.

Yeah, it may have backfired on him. This was his chance to show he could be a starter. It even seems like he has regressed. I remember at least one really bad turnover last night. Basically just passed it to the Grizzlies.

Gonna do bizarro Backcourt 2k with no PG instead of 2. Gonna be fun. Woot woot.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:27 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:19 am

I know there were reports he turned down more money elsewhere to start and showcase himself as a starter on a "contender". I don't know that he would've started on those other teams. NY was one of them and he definitely wouldn't have started there.

But really, every team in the league knows who he is and what he does and they also know our roster is a mess. Can't blame him for all of our problems but he's also getting exposed badly as a starter.

Yeah, it may have backfired on him. This was his chance to show he could be a starter. It even seems like he has regressed. I remember at least one really bad turnover last night. Basically just passed it to the Grizzlies.

He already was a starter, starting last season he started every game he played (66 games) for Washington.

TOO wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:56 am

Gonna do bizarro Backcourt 2k with no PG instead of 2. Gonna be fun. Woot woot.

Isn’t that what we did last season with Beal-Book-Allen-KD-Nurk?

Clearly, Vogel was the better coach.

Clearly, we shouldn’t have let Eubanks get away.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:09 pm

Clearly, Vogel was the better coach.

With such a worse assist rate like that?

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:04 pm

I remember being angrier last year. This year I’m just dejected.

I think the biggest difference is not coaching, but Nurkic. He was pretty solid last season (minus playoffs) but a big zero this season. Sun rebounding and defense would be much better if they had last season's version of Nurkic.

So our new offense should just be, run the clock down and then pass it to Grayson and make him launch

There's this emerging narrative lately that Vogel was actually a better coach for us than Bud. I get where that's coming from, but I feel like each one has noticeable strengths and weaknesses. Our defense and rebounding seem much worse this year, but our offense has a better flow than last year. IMO deciding not to play Nurk is a big factor, along with reducing his role in the offense; Nurk was important on both ends for us last year but he's just gone this year. Also having Tyus, who is an absolute dud on defense and mostly stands around on offense, is a huge negative. I think those two things matter a lot more than the coach. But I do think Bud's offense is better than Vogel's while Vogel's defense was tighter. I prefer Bud but also understand that neither has gotten good results. Mostly I have just concluded that a Booker/KD team (with $50m tied up in mostly dead Beal salary) isn't going to win with any coach.

Playing effective defense for 23 seconds only to give up a 3 is pretty painful.

You need to surround Book/KD with size and defense…we opted for the exact opposite…some interesting stats because offense in general is down:

Relative offensive rating went from +2.3 in 2024 to +1.5 in 2025…so a slight decrease. Relative defensive rating went from +0.7 to -3.3. Quite a huge drop.

I love the four factors stats as it really shows what changed and encompasses just about everything:

Offensive four factors:

2024: 6th in efg%, 27th in TOV%, 11th in ORB, 1st in ftr
2025: 8th in efg%, 17th in TOV%, 27th in ORB, 4th in ftr

So our shot making and ability to get to the line slightly dipped. Turnover rate improved quite a bit, but our offensive rebound rate dropped a ton. We saved a couple possessions by limiting turnovers, but probably lost even more by not rebounding our misses.

Defensive four factors:

2024: 7th in efg%, 25th in TOV%, 17th in DRB, 7th in ftr
2025:11th in efg%, 28th in TOV, 28th in DRB, 16th in ftr

So we got worse at everything…we don’t force turnovers, don’t rebound missed shots, and while last year we at least forced missed shots and didn’t foul, we got worse at both of those.

Size helps you rebound and forced miss shots. Athletes help you force turnovers. That’s what we need.

I'm convinced that Bud and Tyus are working in conjunction with each other to sabotage the team.

pickle wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 6:11 am

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:04 pm

I remember being angrier last year. This year I’m just dejected.

Congratulations, you've made it to step six.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:03 pm

pickle wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 6:11 am

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:04 pm

I remember being angrier last year. This year I’m just dejected.

Congratulations, you've made it to step six.

It’s actually stage four. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

The bargaining (over deck chairs) has been particularly amusing to watch.

Cap wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:31 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:03 pm

pickle wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 14, 2025 6:11 am

I remember being angrier last year. This year I’m just dejected.

Congratulations, you've made it to step six.

It’s actually stage four. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

The bargaining (over deck chairs) has been particularly amusing to watch.

The sad thing is this is the third time I’ve gotten to stage six, or four, or whatever it is, over the past decade.