Jeff Hornacek #farmville . Does he suck?

[3rdside]

I am with OE here, I am starting to feel that the vibes on this board are excessively negative. Last year, Jeff Hornacek was considered a genius by us all, seeing how the team overachieved. This year, many of the same people are pretty much calling him an idiot.

It's pretty clear to me that Hornacek is an excellent coach given the right circumstances, where he has the strategic and tactical freedom to earn buy-in from the players. This year, where Hornacek could not control contract situations, demands for additional usage and a mess of a roster where players could not be placed into proper roles, he's undoubtedly sucked at times. So, it's pretty clear to me that Hornacek is an atrocious coach given the wrong circumstances.

The question is how to create the right kind of circumstances. As many (astute) observers have noted, ball movement has improved greatly since the trade and hero ball has decreased -- at least until this game, when the team has come out extremely flat. Flush this turd and play the next one.

Let's see how Hornacek does the rest of the season. I would like to remind everyone not to jump to conclusions too quickly. Not to single you out, but Robot -- remember how you were portraying Alex Len just at the beginning of the season. I'm not ready to sing the praises of McDonough, Babby and Hornacek quite yet, but I am very cautiously optimistic about the team going forwards.

I don't think it's excessive negativity - i'm more of the view it's a proportionate reaction to the state of the team; probably a mess. Last year we got some chemistry and good vibes going, things were looking up...And McD goes and flushes it down the toilet with boneheaded offseason acquisitions. I was positive-ish about the long term view after Beldsoe's triple double but far less so after yesterday's stinker. Maybe i'm being fickle here, but to view our club negatively is only right until we see how the rest of the season plays out and the offseason / Knight's situation as well.

[Indy]

I am with OE here, I am starting to feel that the vibes on this board are excessively negative. Last year, Jeff Hornacek was considered a genius by us all, seeing how the team overachieved. This year, many of the same people are pretty much calling him an idiot.

It's pretty clear to me that Hornacek is an excellent coach given the right circumstances, where he has the strategic and tactical freedom to earn buy-in from the players. This year, where Hornacek could not control contract situations, demands for additional usage and a mess of a roster where players could not be placed into proper roles, he's undoubtedly sucked at times. So, it's pretty clear to me that Hornacek is an atrocious coach given the wrong circumstances.

The question is how to create the right kind of circumstances. As many (astute) observers have noted, ball movement has improved greatly since the trade and hero ball has decreased -- at least until this game, when the team has come out extremely flat. Flush this turd and play the next one.

Let's see how Hornacek does the rest of the season. I would like to remind everyone not to jump to conclusions too quickly. Not to single you out, but Robot -- remember how you were portraying Alex Len just at the beginning of the season. I'm not ready to sing the praises of McDonough, Babby and Hornacek quite yet, but I am very cautiously optimistic about the team going forwards.

I don't think it's excessive negativity - i'm more of the view it's a proportionate reaction to the state of the team; probably a mess. Last year we got some chemistry and good vibes going, things were looking up...And McD goes and flushes it down the toilet with boneheaded offseason acquisitions. I was positive-ish about the long term view after Beldsoe's triple double but far less so after yesterday's stinker. Maybe i'm being fickle here, but to view our club negatively is only right until we see how the rest of the season plays out and the offseason / Knight's situation as well.

This

[specialsauce]

Too many players isolate (see PJ Tucker, Marcus Morris) that have no business doing so and jack up bad shots. IT was a prime example too. They don't respect the coach. He has no respect in the locker room. Rather get rid of all of the players, or sit their asses, or get rid of the coach. He's shown me this year that he's weak.

[ShelC]

And McD goes and flushes it down the toilet with boneheaded offseason acquisitions.

I'm really not an apologist for him, but what boneheaded offseason moves? Seems like he'd have been damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Look back at the situation. Bledsoe was an RFA and if we don't extend him, he's an UFA. You think the Pistons can keep Monroe now? He's most likely out of there because they couldn't reach a deal. So McD would basically have two UFA starting guards in Bledsoe and Dragic. Ennis? Again, trade bait on draft night that didn't pan out but also insurance with Bledsoe. And IT was a veteran guard to use as leverage and insurance against Bledsoe and Dragic leaving. So he stacked his chips and even with the IT deal, he signed him to a great contract (which most thought was one of the best deals of the offseason) and because of that, was able to find a taker for him at the deadline.

But let's say we don't extend Bledsoe, don't sign IT3 or draft Ennis and Dragic is a FA. Not a great scenario to be in.

Of course, none of this would matter if LeBron hadn't gone to Cleveland. Because then there's a distinct possibility we end up with Love in a S+T. And then McD would be exec of the year...

[INFORMER]

You think the Pistons can keep Monroe now?

Yes.

So McD would basically have two UFA starting guards in Bledsoe and Dragic.

So what? We're talking about a fringe playoff team that had been together for one season. This scenario isn't basketball Armageddon. And don't act like if the worst happened this franchise would be set back a 1000 years.

But let's say we don't extend Bledsoe, don't sign IT3 or draft Ennis and Dragic is a FA. Not a great scenario to be in.

So there were no other moves to be made? It's either make those moves or do nothing? I don't think that's reasonable.

Of course, none of this would matter if LeBron hadn't gone to Cleveland. Because then there's a distinct possibility we end up with Love in a S+T.

Are you serious? There is really no concrete basis to believe this was even remotely probable.

[ShelC]

So what? We're talking about a fringe playoff team that had been together for one season. This scenario isn't basketball Armageddon. And don't act like if the worst happened this franchise would be set back a 1000 years.

You say that now but fans would've been up in arms if he would've lost those 2. We would've been set back and had to blow it up, which wouldn't have sat well with fans after last year's surprise season. We wouldn't have been set back 1,000 years but unless you really hit it right, it can take 3-4-5 years (I know, I know...not unless you have the right guy making the decisions which obviously McD isn't). And aren't you the one who's always talking about having assets and acquiring assets and using them to flip for other assets? If he'd have sat back and done nothing, he would've been chastised for letting it happen.

Are you serious? There is really no concrete basis to believe this was even remotely probable.

We definitely offered up Bledsoe and the Morris Bros in the summer time but Love pretty much forced his way to Cleveland. Maybe it would've been a 1 year rental, but we had as good a shot as any team with our assets. And he wouldn't have agreed to go to Cleveland had LeBron not been there. It would've been us, GS and Chicago most likely.

I always hate getting into these discussions because it's easy to say "See I told you so" when things don't work out. The NBA is fluid and things can change within hours when it comes to players becoming available. So everyone freaking out about this being our team going forward for the next 10 years needs to settle down.

[Mori Chu]

I'm not mad at McDo for signing IT. He thought he might lose Bledsoe and/or Dragic. The thing I disliked is the amount of money we paid Bledsoe; I thought we caved and that Bled had no leverage to get that much money out of us. The IT contract was fine; the ultimate proof of what a good contract it was is that another team eagerly took him off our hands. I think the Morris brothers' contracts were also a good deal. I didn't like the drafting of Ennis; don't think he was BPA or filled a need.

[Superbone]

I have a far different opinion than you guys. In retrospect, the IT signing was absolutely terrible. It ruined team chemistry and led to Dragic's ouster.

[Indy]

I have a far different opinion than you guys. In retrospect, the IT signing was absolutely terrible. It ruined team chemistry and led to Dragic's ouster.

I get what you are saying, but to me it is clear that didn't happen. Dragic was complaining last year about having to just share the ball with Bledsoe. Both sides confirmed this (I think). The only reason he didn't blow up last year was he got to be showcased for much of the season without Bledsoe. It might have come about a bit differently, but it was coming nonetheless. Honestly, it is pretty clear he wanted a max contract, and there were people willing to give it to him, and we weren't one of them. His agent isn't going to let him walk away from $20M/yr.

[carey]

I have a far different opinion than you guys. In retrospect, the IT signing was absolutely terrible. It ruined team chemistry and led to Dragic's ouster.

I get what you are saying, but to me it is clear that didn't happen. Dragic was complaining last year about having to just share the ball with Bledsoe. Both sides confirmed this (I think). The only reason he didn't blow up last year was he got to be showcased for much of the season without Bledsoe. It might have come about a bit differently, but it was coming nonetheless. Honestly, it is pretty clear he wanted a max contract, and there were people willing to give it to him, and we weren't one of them. His agent isn't going to let him walk away from $20M/yr.

Well, it's weird. If you listened to that Sarver interview you kind of get the impression there's a very specific set of things Goran wants. When he ran his own show with Gortat & Scola he didn't perform all that great. He asked for help in the ball handling department. So they got help in the ball handling department by acquiring Bledsoe. Maybe that wound up being too much help. I guess he wanted a combo-guard type like Harden or something that could create his own shot. Not necessarily another PG that would be bringing the ball up the court. So maybe he has that now with Wade, but I'm telling you, to my eyes it looks like he's doing a lot of the same things like handing the ball off and running to the corner. People point to some of his high scoring games in Miami but in the one I watched nearly all of his points were in transition. Whiteside or Deng would make a good defensive play and get it up the court to him quickly for a layup. So who knows what he really thinks of the Miami situation right now because he can score fast break buckets anywhere.

[Robot]

I think last years surprise performance actually set back this club in a number of ways. Trojan horse

- R

[In2ition]

I think last years surprise performance actually set back this club in a number of ways. Trojan horse

- R

Agreed and said it before it was going to if it happened.

[JCSunsfan]

Jeff's biggest problem is that Bledsoe doesn't push the ball enough. It's hard to run a fast-break offense when your pg doesn't run.

[Sunsfan4life]

Jeff's biggest problem is that Bledsoe doesn't push the ball enough. It's hard to run a fast-break offense when your pg doesn't run.

I disagree. I think his biggest problem when it comes to Bledsoe is eric doesn't make good enough decisions when he does push it. It results in way to many turnovers which in turn result inw ay to many easy pts the other way.

Overall though the suns don't have near enough shooting with this current group to play the way they were playing. They have to add more shooters this off-season, it just isn't there to spread the court.

[Indy]

Agreed. Bledsoe not pushing the ball isn't near as big of hindrance as his decision making.

[INFORMER]

We would've been set back and had to blow it up, which wouldn't have sat well with fans after last year's surprise season.

Setback from what? You act like the Suns were or are on the precipice of greatness. And your all or nothing premise of either Ryan did what he did or he couldn't do anything at all isn't reasonable or realistic.

And aren't you the one who's always talking about having assets and acquiring assets and using them to flip for other assets?

Not indiscriminately.

If he'd have sat back and done nothing

Ugh, no one is asking him to do nothing.

I always hate getting into these discussions because it's easy to say "See I told you so" when things don't work out.

That is disappointingly weak of you to say. Someone speaks out against moves made by the front office and they're being too negative. They turn out to be right and they're still dismissed because "the NBA is fluid and anything can happen." That's garbage Shel. It's establishing a context devoid of accountability that casts the front office as irreproachable.

[3rdside]

I have a far different opinion than you guys. In retrospect, the IT signing was absolutely terrible. It ruined team chemistry and led to Dragic's ouster.

I get what you are saying, but to me it is clear that didn't happen. Dragic was complaining last year about having to just share the ball with Bledsoe. Both sides confirmed this (I think). The only reason he didn't blow up last year was he got to be showcased for much of the season without Bledsoe. It might have come about a bit differently, but it was coming nonetheless. Honestly, it is pretty clear he wanted a max contract, and there were people willing to give it to him, and we weren't one of them. His agent isn't going to let him walk away from $20M/yr.

This puts a slightly different spin on things as I've been fairly pro-Dragic in the whole saga based on his level of play last year and the commentary on him; nice guy / team player / took a home town discount to return here from Houston etc, but my main issue - that McD killed chemistry via the Thomas acquisition, and, to far a lesser extent, the non-playing of rookies, remains.

I'm not really sure we were 'forced' into the Thomas acquisition as it happened on July 11 and we offered Bledsoe the 4yr/$48m only a week before that; pressure would have been felt but (and maybe this applies in hindsight only) there must have been better alternatives. Thomas - I think - can firmly be put in the cancer-if-not-handled-correctly category, and that's exactly what he was with us.

And if worst case happens; Bledsoe goes elsewhere, and we don't sign an insurance policy in Thomas, then having Dragic run the point and Green / Goodwin / other free agent at the 2, with rookies getting playing time, probably isn’t the end of the world. Really, the Suns should have offered Bledsoe more from the outset IMO to have avoided the elongated contract negotiation; it made both parties look bad (but probably the suns worse; $aver comes to mind) and possibly precipitated this whole ordeal.

So Bledsoe or no Bledsoe, even if Dragic wants to bolt because he really is after a max and we can’t offer it – which sounds plausible (or even if this isn’t the case and he just wants to bolt) - then a mid-season trade or sign and trade could have done the job. Maybe I'm being idealistic but, based on Dragic’s previous dealings with the Suns and the nature of him as a person, assuming we were in the playoff hunt this season with Dragic running the team and Bledsoe on board, then it’s not the biggest stretch to think he may have committed to staying with us, and at a discount as well. Reaching a little bit here but, throw in that Stoudemire joined a 6th seed that could have been us (it's plausible; Dragic, Bledsoe, Tucker, an Improved Markieff and Len ... we were basically the 8th seed last year..) and imagine the goodwill we'd all be feeling right now.

Where we're at is totally the opposite of that.

And that's why I blame McD; his total ignorance of what made us successful last year – chemistry – and failure to build on the success via a tweak here or there, instead acquiring a known loud mouth disrupter in Thomas that killed it and put an abrupt end to my preferred continuity strategy. Why mess with what worked in the first place?

[LazarusLong]

All the good will built up by last season's surprise showing is gone, like tears in rain.

Hornacek seems overmatched as a coach, the front office has made numerous missteps in player moves, and some of the players are lashing out at the fans.

[OE32]

All the good will built up by last season's surprise showing is gone, like tears in rain.

Hornacek seems overmatched as a coach, the front office has made numerous missteps in player moves, and some of the players are lashing out at the fans.

Of everything, the thing that bothered me most was the front office ripping Goran. Stupid and classless. I had held McD in such high regard - now, while I still think he's a capable basketball man, I have serious doubts about his people skills. Ugh.

[LazarusLong]

I agree. That was unnecessary.
It's trying to be right by getting in the last word, a tactic that rarely ever works.