Page 11 of 16
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:36 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
IIRC, Leonard was one of the players in the bubble who chose not to kneel before games.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:55 pm
by pickle
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:38 pm
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:18 pm
KJ is one of the 15 greatest point guards of all time? Damn.
I think so. Here’s how he ranks all time in a few catch all stats(amongst pg’s):
BPM: 8th
VORP: 18th
WS: 18th
WS/48: 6th
PER: 9th
So the two more cumulative stats he’s just outside the top 15. The non cumulative ones he’s top 10. So I think I’d put him top 15.
Magic, Curry, Oscar, CP3, Stockton, Isiah, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Lillard...that’s 10. Frazier, Cousy, Billups, Westbrook, Hardaway. Feels like KJ fits in that last group. Am I missing anyone?
Not hating on KJ in any way... He was far and away my favorite player growing up -- that dunk over Hakeem -- and naturally I had some real mixed feelings after the child molestation came to light. Sticking to basketball though, I guess I just always identified him with injuries. I know he put up great numbers, but when NBA pundits talk about how great some young point guard is, nobody ever compares them to KJ, and I wonder if the off court stuff has something to do with it. Not saying that he didn't deserve to be in that top 15 list, guess my original post came off in an unintended way...
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:57 pm
by pickle
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:16 pm
Meyers Leonard was pissed at some kid on a video game and called him a racist slur for Jewish people.
Thanks Indy. Looked it up. Damn...
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:15 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
#NotTheOnion
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:21 pm
by ShelC
Think he had some gaming sponsorship get dropped this afternoon too.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:24 pm
by Shabazz
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:58 pm
by ShelC
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:32 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Why did the Heat go full caps with HEAT? Is that like a Trump Florida thing?
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:56 pm
by Superbone
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:16 pm
Meyers Leonard was pissed at some kid on a video game and called him a racist slur for Jewish people.
I honestly had to look up the word to see what it represented.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:58 pm
by Superbone
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:36 pm
IIRC, Leonard was one of the players in the bubble who chose not to kneel before games.
He was. But that was his right and his brother is in the service. He talked about that at the time and I was fine with it but something didn't sit right with him.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:03 pm
by Superbone
"While I didn't know what the word meant at the time..."
Give me a break! Am I the only one that doesn't use words that I don't know what they mean?
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:19 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:58 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:36 pm
IIRC, Leonard was one of the players in the bubble who chose not to kneel before games.
He was. But that was his right and his brother is in the service. He talked about that at the time and I was fine with it but something didn't sit right with him.
You're correct, it's his right, but the whole "respecting the troops" thing has always seemed like a lame copout for not taking responsibility for the social issues at the root of the problem. We don't need to rehash the whole thing here, but it shouldn't be forgotten that a military veteran advised Colin Kaepernick to kneel during the anthem to express himself. To me, that excuse by Leonard was tone-deaf and selfish.
I brought it up here because his apparent lack of awareness kind of falls in line with this recent situation.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:21 pm
by Superbone
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:19 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:58 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:36 pm
IIRC, Leonard was one of the players in the bubble who chose not to kneel before games.
He was. But that was his right and his brother is in the service. He talked about that at the time and I was fine with it but something didn't sit right with him.
You're correct, it's his right, but the whole "respecting the troops" thing has always seemed like a lame copout for not taking responsibility for the social issues at the root of the problem. We don't need to rehash the whole thing here, but it shouldn't be forgotten that a military veteran advised Colin Kaepernick to kneel during the anthem to express himself. To me, that excuse by Leonard was tone-deaf and selfish.
I brought it up here because his apparent lack of awareness kind of falls in line with this recent situation.
I'm with you. I would have been in unity in support of my teammates.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:08 pm
by virtual9mm
pickle wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:55 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:38 pm
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:18 pm
KJ is one of the 15 greatest point guards of all time? Damn.
I think so. Here’s how he ranks all time in a few catch all stats(amongst pg’s):
BPM: 8th
VORP: 18th
WS: 18th
WS/48: 6th
PER: 9th
So the two more cumulative stats he’s just outside the top 15. The non cumulative ones he’s top 10. So I think I’d put him top 15.
Magic, Curry, Oscar, CP3, Stockton, Isiah, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Lillard...that’s 10. Frazier, Cousy, Billups, Westbrook, Hardaway. Feels like KJ fits in that last group. Am I missing anyone?
Not hating on KJ in any way... He was far and away my favorite player growing up -- that dunk over Hakeem -- and naturally I had some real mixed feelings after the child molestation came to light. Sticking to basketball though, I guess I just always identified him with injuries. I know he put up great numbers, but when NBA pundits talk about how great some young point guard is, nobody ever compares them to KJ, and I wonder if the off court stuff has something to do with it. Not saying that he didn't deserve to be in that top 15 list, guess my original post came off in an unintended way...
No question that the man was a creep and that his legacy is tarnished.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:37 pm
by Indy
virtual9mm wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:08 pm
pickle wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:55 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:38 pm
pickle wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:18 pm
KJ is one of the 15 greatest point guards of all time? Damn.
I think so. Here’s how he ranks all time in a few catch all stats(amongst pg’s):
BPM: 8th
VORP: 18th
WS: 18th
WS/48: 6th
PER: 9th
So the two more cumulative stats he’s just outside the top 15. The non cumulative ones he’s top 10. So I think I’d put him top 15.
Magic, Curry, Oscar, CP3, Stockton, Isiah, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Lillard...that’s 10. Frazier, Cousy, Billups, Westbrook, Hardaway. Feels like KJ fits in that last group. Am I missing anyone?
Not hating on KJ in any way... He was far and away my favorite player growing up -- that dunk over Hakeem -- and naturally I had some real mixed feelings after the child molestation came to light. Sticking to basketball though, I guess I just always identified him with injuries. I know he put up great numbers, but when NBA pundits talk about how great some young point guard is, nobody ever compares them to KJ, and I wonder if the off court stuff has something to do with it. Not saying that he didn't deserve to be in that top 15 list, guess my original post came off in an unintended way...
No question that the man was a creep and that his legacy is tarnished.
Exactly. And without KJ, I don't think I would have ever gotten into Suns basketball. At least not into it enough to follow nearly every game through a decade of utter shit.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:41 pm
by pickle
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:37 pm
Exactly. And without KJ, I don't think I would have ever gotten into Suns basketball. At least not into it enough to follow nearly every game through a decade of utter shit.
Right there with you Indy. After KJ I think Nash became my favorite player. Then he got traded to the Lakers and that was one of the team he approved of so while I still rooted for him he lost that favorite status. Then the charges against KJ... now I feel a bit of a void. I like Booker, but he's not there yet for me. Maybe ... Richard Dumas?
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:58 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
My childhood friends and I were all Suns fans, but usually our favorite players were playing for other teams. I was a big Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson fan (Charlotte Hornets, in general). Orlando Penny Hardaway, GSW Latrell Sprewell, Jason Kidd and Jamal Mashburn in Dallas. I even had a Nick Van Exel Lakers jersey. (oops)
Basically, I just loved the culture of basketball in the early-mid 90's, but the Suns were still the only team I wanted to win.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:31 pm
by Indy
pickle wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:41 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:37 pm
Exactly. And without KJ, I don't think I would have ever gotten into Suns basketball. At least not into it enough to follow nearly every game through a decade of utter shit.
Right there with you Indy. After KJ I think Nash became my favorite player. Then he got traded to the Lakers and that was one of the team he approved of so while I still rooted for him he lost that favorite status. Then the charges against KJ... now I feel a bit of a void. I like Booker, but he's not there yet for me. Maybe ... Richard Dumas?
I went KJ, then Marion, then Nash, now... I don't know.
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:31 pm
by Indy
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:58 pm
My childhood friends and I were all Suns fans, but usually our favorite players were playing for other teams. I was a big Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson fan (Charlotte Hornets, in general). Orlando Penny Hardaway, GSW Latrell Sprewell, Jason Kidd and Jamal Mashburn in Dallas.
I even had a Nick Van Exel Lakers jersey. (oops)
Basically, I just loved the culture of basketball in the early-mid 90's, but the Suns were still the only team I wanted to win.
get a rope!
Re: Around the League: Week 11 3/1-3/7
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:56 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:06 pm
It isn't a punishment. It is just when you miss a third of your games during your peak, you aren't going to get credit for what you might have done if you could play.
And much like Karl Malone, he isn't going to be on a lot of all-time great lists because of the child molestation issues.
Yes, but going strictly by how good he was when healthy on the court would put him at a different level than if evaluating off the court issues or what he wasn’t able to do on the court due to missed games/less-than-fully-healthy games.