Ryan out as GM

[O_Gardino]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

I post this a lot in the discussions about Jackson, but he was much better starting after new years.

We played 44 games in 2018, and Jackson missed 5 of those. In the remaining 39 games, here are his numbers:

Code: Select all

Basic Game Log (39th Career Game to 77th Career Game) 
First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2018-01-03	2018-04-06	39	22	29.2	6.7	15.2	.440	0.9	3.3	.279	2.8	4.2	.685	1.4	4.1	5.6	2.0	1.1	0.6	2.1	2.9	17.2	10.6	-6.5

17 points on .440 shooting, 5.6 rebounds, 2 assists. That's a hell of a lot better than "less terrible".

[Superbone]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

Was not.

[Superbone]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

I post this a lot in the discussions about Jackson, but he was much better starting after new years.

We played 44 games in 2018, and Jackson missed 5 of those. In the remaining 39 games, here are his numbers:

Code: Select all

Basic Game Log (39th Career Game to 77th Career Game) 
First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2018-01-03	2018-04-06	39	22	29.2	6.7	15.2	.440	0.9	3.3	.279	2.8	4.2	.685	1.4	4.1	5.6	2.0	1.1	0.6	2.1	2.9	17.2	10.6	-6.5

17 points on .440 shooting, 5.6 rebounds, 2 assists. That's a hell of a lot better than "less terrible".

Thank you.

[Indy]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

I post this a lot in the discussions about Jackson, but he was much better starting after new years.

We played 44 games in 2018, and Jackson missed 5 of those. In the remaining 39 games, here are his numbers:

Code: Select all

Basic Game Log (39th Career Game to 77th Career Game) 
First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2018-01-03	2018-04-06	39	22	29.2	6.7	15.2	.440	0.9	3.3	.279	2.8	4.2	.685	1.4	4.1	5.6	2.0	1.1	0.6	2.1	2.9	17.2	10.6	-6.5

17 points on .440 shooting, 5.6 rebounds, 2 assists. That's a hell of a lot better than "less terrible".

raw stats when he was the #1 guy on the worst team in the league are one thing. The advanced stats are another.

http://www.phx-suns.net/viewtopic.php?f ... th#p125741

[carey]

I think that the silver lining to Ryan getting fired is that we see more of INF on the forum now.

best take in this thread

Sweet. More eye rolls!

[Split T]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

I post this a lot in the discussions about Jackson, but he was much better starting after new years.

We played 44 games in 2018, and Jackson missed 5 of those. In the remaining 39 games, here are his numbers:

Code: Select all

Basic Game Log (39th Career Game to 77th Career Game) 
First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2018-01-03	2018-04-06	39	22	29.2	6.7	15.2	.440	0.9	3.3	.279	2.8	4.2	.685	1.4	4.1	5.6	2.0	1.1	0.6	2.1	2.9	17.2	10.6	-6.5

17 points on .440 shooting, 5.6 rebounds, 2 assists. That's a hell of a lot better than "less terrible".

raw stats when he was the #1 guy on the worst team in the league are one thing. The advanced stats are another.

http://www.phx-suns.net/viewtopic.php?f ... th#p125741

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

[Indy]

Sounds like you had your mind made up about Jackson before he even got here. He was definitely not terrible the second half of last season. He is currently one of our best distributors on the team and may be the best at getting Ayton the ball. He is a work in progress. He has an intensity that you cannot teach. I'm willing to give him some time.

He was. He was less terrible the last 23 games of the season (after the all-star break), but he was SO awful the first 60 games that we all want to think the last 6 weeks of the season were really the second 4 months of the season. he has a ton of potential...

I post this a lot in the discussions about Jackson, but he was much better starting after new years.

We played 44 games in 2018, and Jackson missed 5 of those. In the remaining 39 games, here are his numbers:

Code: Select all

Basic Game Log (39th Career Game to 77th Career Game) 
First		Last		G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
2018-01-03	2018-04-06	39	22	29.2	6.7	15.2	.440	0.9	3.3	.279	2.8	4.2	.685	1.4	4.1	5.6	2.0	1.1	0.6	2.1	2.9	17.2	10.6	-6.5

17 points on .440 shooting, 5.6 rebounds, 2 assists. That's a hell of a lot better than "less terrible".

raw stats when he was the #1 guy on the worst team in the league are one thing. The advanced stats are another.

http://www.phx-suns.net/viewtopic.php?f ... th#p125741

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

OK. that is fair. But when you rank 263rd/273, that is pretty awful. Even if it is much better than being 272nd.

[Superbone]

I think that the silver lining to Ryan getting fired is that we see more of INF on the forum now.

best take in this thread

Sweet. More eye rolls!

Don't forget his new favorite, the barf emoticon.

[Mori Chu]

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

I have some sympathy for your point. But isn't all of that going to still be true this year? We're still bad; he will still be asked to do too much (run the offense, because we have no PG; be one of our top-3 scorers; play big minutes; start; etc.). Wouldn't a reasonable person expect his advanced stats to be bad again this year? He may show improvement, but won't he still be inefficient and make mistakes? And is this any cause for concern?

[O_Gardino]

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

I have some sympathy for your point. But isn't all of that going to still be true this year? We're still bad; he will still be asked to do too much (run the offense, because we have no PG; be one of our top-3 scorers; play big minutes; start; etc.). Wouldn't a reasonable person expect his advanced stats to be bad again this year? He may show improvement, but won't he still be inefficient and make mistakes? And is this any cause for concern?

I'm concerned with him. He has a chance to be really good or really bad, and I feel that he won't land anywhere in between. He has to make better decisions, and that wont happen over night.

As for advanced stats, they are so context dependent that you have to be careful making decisions based on them. Yes, of cource he's going to have bad advanced sats this season. Doesn't mean he's going to be a bad player.

[In2ition]

Idk, it's already well known that Ryan didn't have the best relationship with the players and it was shown over and over again. It was probably a good time to get rid of him, especially if it was inhibiting trades and FA acquisitions. You don't want the players to become disgruntled or decide not to sign or nix trades to the Suns. This was probably a good time, because what happens if the Suns improve tremendously this year and are expected to sign someone significant, but they decide to go elsewhere because of Ryan? And you certainly don't want to alienate your best players and he was already going down that track when he let Ulis go, without talking to Booker first(which he said he would do). Ryan seems like a really nice guy, but not a guy that can relate to the players very well. Now that you have the young pillars and future superstars, you have to keep them happy and make this a model organization that entices players to play here.

[Split T]

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

I have some sympathy for your point. But isn't all of that going to still be true this year? We're still bad; he will still be asked to do too much (run the offense, because we have no PG; be one of our top-3 scorers; play big minutes; start; etc.). Wouldn't a reasonable person expect his advanced stats to be bad again this year? He may show improvement, but won't he still be inefficient and make mistakes? And is this any cause for concern?

If his advanced stats are still as bad as last year, that would be a bad sign. He spent most of that 2nd half playing without Booker. We've essentially added Booker, Ariza, and Ayton. That's gonna be a huge help for Jackson. We'll see what happens, but I'm hoping we'll see Jackson improve his shot selection. If he focuses mostly on getting to the rim, creating looks for others and defense, he'll have a good year.

[Superbone]

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

I have some sympathy for your point. But isn't all of that going to still be true this year? We're still bad; he will still be asked to do too much (run the offense, because we have no PG; be one of our top-3 scorers; play big minutes; start; etc.). Wouldn't a reasonable person expect his advanced stats to be bad again this year? He may show improvement, but won't he still be inefficient and make mistakes? And is this any cause for concern?

If his advanced stats are still as bad as last year, that would be a bad sign. He spent most of that 2nd half playing without Booker. We've essentially added Booker, Ariza, and Ayton. That's gonna be a huge help for Jackson. We'll see what happens, but I'm hoping we'll see Jackson improve his shot selection. If he focuses mostly on getting to the rim, creating looks for others and defense, he'll have a good year.

Yep, that should be his focus. We don't need him jacking 20 footers.

[In2ition]

The advanced stats are certainly concerning, but they're also misleading. He was playing a role he was not ready for and was in over his head. He had terrible teammates and as much as people try to eliminate teammates impact, those all encompassing stats are impossible to elite teamsters impact entirely.

I have some sympathy for your point. But isn't all of that going to still be true this year? We're still bad; he will still be asked to do too much (run the offense, because we have no PG; be one of our top-3 scorers; play big minutes; start; etc.). Wouldn't a reasonable person expect his advanced stats to be bad again this year? He may show improvement, but won't he still be inefficient and make mistakes? And is this any cause for concern?

If his advanced stats are still as bad as last year, that would be a bad sign. He spent most of that 2nd half playing without Booker. We've essentially added Booker, Ariza, and Ayton. That's gonna be a huge help for Jackson. We'll see what happens, but I'm hoping we'll see Jackson improve his shot selection. If he focuses mostly on getting to the rim, creating looks for others and defense, he'll have a good year.

Does Jackson know the shots and/or spots that he can make at a high efficiency? He seems to have that confidence level that any shot from anywhere is his shot, but doesn't realize that he only makes about 20-30% of them. I get the feeling that he doesn't really know where and how he can get the shots he will make most of the time in a game. Love his unwavering confidence though. I still haven't seen him really lock down anyone or any team yet either.

[Shabazz]

I think the concerns around him are legitimate. There are a number of players drafted over the last few years who have so much to offer, but busted jumpers. And the line of thinking is always "let's draft him and if/when we fix his jumper, he'll be a star." And then it just doesn't happen. Think MKG, Winslow, etc. Those guys are topping out as solid role players, but they were both stud defenders from day 1. Jackson hasn't yet showed the 1-on-1 defense that those guys did early on.

[ShelC]

That's my fear with him as well. There's no "fixing" a busted jumper. I know we've talked about this before, but all he can do is keep practicing shots he's going to get in games via the offense. He's got the handles to get into the lane, he needs to hit the elbow jumper. The 3pt shot can come later but he needs to make shots he's made before and I don't see him making those yet.

[Split T]

I don't know that I'd describe his jumper as broken. He's not a good shooter right now, but he's shown that he can hit shots when in rhythm. I don't know that he'll ever be a good shooter, but if he can just figure out what shots are good shots for him and be more consistent with his form, I think he can be respectable. If he's 33-34% as a spot up shooter from 3 and can pull up from the 15 foot range with some consistency, I'll be happy. He's got the ball handling, finishing, and passing to be a real threat at the rim without being elite, or even good as a shooter.

[Drewsprocket]

Jackson is going to learn to play within himself and use his skills to be effective. Part of his development will include having a two man game with Ayton. The context of playing alongside Booker and Ayton should limit his poor shot selection and highlight his strengths vis only having 10-12 shots per night. That would be my aim, I wouldn’t stick him out there with the rest of the bench.

[Ring_Wanted]

I don't know that I'd describe his jumper as broken. He's not a good shooter right now, but he's shown that he can hit shots when in rhythm. I don't know that he'll ever be a good shooter, but if he can just figure out what shots are good shots for him and be more consistent with his form, I think he can be respectable. If he's 33-34% as a spot up shooter from 3 and can pull up from the 15 foot range with some consistency, I'll be happy. He's got the ball handling, finishing, and passing to be a real threat at the rim without being elite, or even good as a shooter.

Bingo. Spot up more of an issue right now. But overall he needs to be tamed and learn shot selection. He can create off the dribble, but needs to be under control.

Also, his defense is overrated in my opinion, as he doesn't seem to react quickly to first steps and doesn't use his body enough before the the opponent's motion starts.

Overall I have a hard time figuring out where he fits if this team wants to start winning. He looks better suited for a team in the beginning of a rebuild (although he is not that young as a prospect).

I acknowledge his potential but I believe we would be wise to listen to what other teams would be willing to give up for him.

[OE32]

I don't know that I'd describe his jumper as broken. He's not a good shooter right now, but he's shown that he can hit shots when in rhythm. I don't know that he'll ever be a good shooter, but if he can just figure out what shots are good shots for him and be more consistent with his form, I think he can be respectable. If he's 33-34% as a spot up shooter from 3 and can pull up from the 15 foot range with some consistency, I'll be happy. He's got the ball handling, finishing, and passing to be a real threat at the rim without being elite, or even good as a shooter.

Bingo. Spot up more of an issue right now. But overall he needs to be tamed and learn shot selection. He can create off the dribble, but needs to be under control.

Also, his defense is overrated in my opinion, as he doesn't seem to react quickly to first steps and doesn't use his body enough before the the opponent's motion starts.

Overall I have a hard time figuring out where he fits if this team wants to start winning. He looks better suited for a team in the beginning of a rebuild (although he is not that young as a prospect).

I acknowledge his potential but I believe we would be wise to listen to what other teams would be willing to give up for him.

Double bingo.