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Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:16 pm
by JeremyG
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:06 pm
Oh, and to be clear, I would love to use Oubre in the deal over anyone. But I just don't see that working since he is only a 30 game rental.
He is a restricted free agent, though. So maybe it's possible.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:24 pm
by iLLmatic
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:05 pm
To me it depends on if we need better scoring or better rebounding and defense. No question that TJ is far and away better at scoring. But he doesn't defend or rebound. I think Jackson can be good at both, but I know he is far away from being that right now. To me it is a gamble, but if I had to choose between JJ and TJ being a better fit in the future, I think JJ has a better chance to be what we need next to Booker than TJ.
All of this is assuming we are looking at 2 years from now to be competing for a playoff spot.
So we can agree that Warren is good at scoring relative to NBA talent. What does Josh Jackson do that's good currently? We want to trade away a known commodity for something that could be that's not showing right now? I'm not impressed with JJs defense nor his rebounding, he's only averaging .1 more than Warren this year.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:42 pm
by Split T
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:24 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:05 pm
To me it depends on if we need better scoring or better rebounding and defense. No question that TJ is far and away better at scoring. But he doesn't defend or rebound. I think Jackson can be good at both, but I know he is far away from being that right now. To me it is a gamble, but if I had to choose between JJ and TJ being a better fit in the future, I think JJ has a better chance to be what we need next to Booker than TJ.
All of this is assuming we are looking at 2 years from now to be competing for a playoff spot.
So we can agree that Warren is good at scoring relative to NBA talent. What does Josh Jackson do that's good currently? We want to trade away a known commodity for something that could be that's not showing right now? I'm not impressed with JJs defense nor his rebounding, he's only averaging .1 more than Warren this year.
No one is arguing Jackson is better than warren right now. But he is better as a defender and a rebounder. He may only be averaging .1 rebounds more, but that’s in less minutes. JJ has a rebound rate of 10.0, warren is at 7.2
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:48 pm
by Indy
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:42 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:24 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:05 pm
To me it depends on if we need better scoring or better rebounding and defense. No question that TJ is far and away better at scoring. But he doesn't defend or rebound. I think Jackson can be good at both, but I know he is far away from being that right now. To me it is a gamble, but if I had to choose between JJ and TJ being a better fit in the future, I think JJ has a better chance to be what we need next to Booker than TJ.
All of this is assuming we are looking at 2 years from now to be competing for a playoff spot.
So we can agree that Warren is good at scoring relative to NBA talent. What does Josh Jackson do that's good currently? We want to trade away a known commodity for something that could be that's not showing right now? I'm not impressed with JJs defense nor his rebounding, he's only averaging .1 more than Warren this year.
No one is arguing Jackson is better than warren right now. But he is better as a defender and a rebounder. He may only be averaging .1 rebounds more, but that’s in less minutes. JJ has a rebound rate of 10.0, warren is at 7.2
That was my point. And that rebounding rate for Josh is him only playing 2% of his minutes at the 4, where TJ has played 99% of his minutes there. It is significant.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:00 pm
by ShelC
And Jackson's ballhandling/distributing shouldn't be overlooked.
But back to TJ as a 6th man/primary scorer...it's how he scores that's troublesome. Again, no real go-to moves - doesn't play in the post, isn't an ISO player, isn't a real off the dribble threat, not really a slasher. He's all of those things in transition or off broken plays. Does that work as a 6th man?
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:03 pm
by Indy
ShelC wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:00 pm
And Jackson's ballhandling/distributing shouldn't be overlooked.
But back to TJ as a 6th man/primary scorer...it's how he scores that's troublesome. Again, no real go-to moves - doesn't play in the post, isn't an ISO player, isn't a real off the dribble threat, not really a slasher. He's all of those things in transition or off broken plays. Does that work as a 6th man?
I don't know. Kind of the same questions we have about Ayton. Yeah, he looks like a 20/10 guy by next year, but he doesn't score through anyone, and doesn't rebound over anyone, and doesn't stop FGA at the basket. Is that what we need in a #1 pick at the center spot?
I am just so frustrated with our team construction.
My son is really into basketball now, and he is just about to turn 10. He has never known a time in his life when the Suns we relevant...
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:18 pm
by ShelC
I think Ayton will be a legit post threat once we run offense thru him. I'm fine with his rebounding simply because of the space he takes up and I think as long as he's willing to work, he'll get better with his focus, aggression, and timing on the defensive end. Even just being in position to change shots is what we need. But a legit PF to also grab boards and protect the rim will help a ton.
It's why we need the right players at PG, SF and PF.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:18 pm
by Superbone
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:19 am
LazarusLong wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:54 am
... you guys are all nuts ...
Desperate fan base. It's what happens when you win 11 games and haven't made the playoffs in a decade.
Or don't get puns.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:23 pm
by Superbone
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:03 pm
ShelC wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:00 pm
And Jackson's ballhandling/distributing shouldn't be overlooked.
But back to TJ as a 6th man/primary scorer...it's how he scores that's troublesome. Again, no real go-to moves - doesn't play in the post, isn't an ISO player, isn't a real off the dribble threat, not really a slasher. He's all of those things in transition or off broken plays. Does that work as a 6th man?
I don't know. Kind of the same questions we have about Ayton. Yeah, he looks like a 20/10 guy by next year, but he doesn't score through anyone, and doesn't rebound over anyone, and doesn't stop FGA at the basket. Is that what we need in a #1 pick at the center spot?
I am just so frustrated with our team construction.
My son is really into basketball now, and he is just about to turn 10. He has never known a time in his life when the Suns we relevant...
I am extremely lucky that when my sons were that age, we were at the start of the Nash years.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:25 pm
by JeremyG
I don't think we should be worried about Ayton's rebounding.
There are 17 teams in the league who don't have any player that averages as many rebounds as Ayton does...and he's a 20-year old rookie.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:26 pm
by Indy
ShelC wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:18 pm
I think Ayton will be a legit post threat once we run offense thru him. I'm fine with his rebounding simply because of the space he takes up and I think as long as he's willing to work,
he'll get better with his focus, aggression, and timing on the defensive end. Even just being in position to change shots is what we need. But a legit PF to also grab boards and protect the rim will help a ton.
It's why we need the right players at PG, SF and PF.
You think he will get more aggressive? That doesn't seem to be something that increases. You either have it or your don't. I assumed with him coming out as the #1 pick, and easily losing the rookie of the year battle, he would have a big enough chip on his shoulder to be aggressive. I just don't see it.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:33 pm
by ShelC
I hear ya and I 99% of the time agree. But we've seen flashes and he's mentioned it in some articles...I think he needs guys/coaches to stay on him and make sure he's dunking it and not laying it in and taking it easy; that he's staying engaged through the end of the possession and not watching the play once the initial shot goes up. Those are habits that can be formed IMO.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:51 pm
by Indy
I really hope you are right. I don't want him to be our Sam Bowie.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:40 pm
by Superbone
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:51 pm
I really hope you are right. I don't want him to be our Sam Bowie.
Please! Please! Please! ...don't be our Sam Bowie to the Mavericks Michael Jordan!
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 pm
by Split T
Nah, Bowie was the 2nd pick. Ayton is our Hakeem
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:32 pm
by Indy
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 pm
Nah, Bowie was the 2nd pick. Ayton is our Hakeem
I really hope you are right. You can see that some times, but other times you just shake your head or scream at your tv when he just stands there and watches stuff happen without moving his feet.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:19 pm
by TOO
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 pm
Nah, Bowie was the 2nd pick. Ayton is our Hakeem
I'd settle for DeMarcus Cousins, seems like his best case scenario IMO.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46 am
by JeremyG
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 pm
Nah, Bowie was the 2nd pick. Ayton is our Hakeem
I'll take that. Rockets fans can't really be mad either, he did bring them 2 championships, even if Jordan got 6.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:50 am
by SDC
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:43 am
SDC wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 am
sarver needs to intervene and not let james jones make deals unsupervised. no reason to help NOLA unload their bad contracts on the suns. if lebron wants AD that bad, lakers should absorb solomon hills contract, not phx.
Believe me. Sarver will be involved. Heavily.
that trade for oubre still doesnt make any sense.
originally, james jones was going to help lebron by trading ariza to the lakers right? sarver intervened to stop this. then we found out a 3 team trade fell apart, and phx, being impatient, dealt ariza to the wiz directly.
james jones' default position is to always help the lakers first.
Re: Suns News: Week 16 1/28-2/3
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:14 am
by Mori Chu
SDC wrote: ↑Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:50 am
that trade for oubre still doesnt make any sense.
originally, james jones was going to help lebron by trading ariza to the lakers right? sarver intervened to stop this. then we found out a 3 team trade fell apart, and phx, being impatient, dealt ariza to the wiz directly.
james jones' default position is to always help the lakers first.
I do think James Jones wouldn't mind helping Lebron and the Lakers. I think you're right that Sarver intervened to stop an Ariza trade to the Lakers, but I worry that in the pursuit of Lonzo Ball, Sarver will get talked into giving up too many/valuable assets like our own 1st round pick.