Phx-Suns.Net

Ring_Wanted wrote:Don't be absurd. If you stretch things to the max, indeed we don't 'need' to give up players. But if you want to complete the deal at the draft, it is what it is.

And I am by no means desperate to move the twins. I'm not as high on them as you, but that doesn't mean I don't value them or that I don't realize that they were big contributors last season.

Ok - just checking.

It's simple - again, agree in principle on draft day to #18 (or maybe even #27 + future 2nd rounders or something of the like) for Nash & #7, then complete it On July 1st. No players given up & we retain (and gain) quality depth while $21 million comes off the books.

SwingMan wrote: Ok - just checking.

On the other hand, if I have to choose among our guys who should be used in trades or where to upgrade, thet twins are usually first on my list, for a number of reasons.

They have their use and skills, and Kieff won us games last season, but their upside is limited, are already 24 and they'll need new contracts soon.

Marcus in particular looks like the odd man out in almost every scenario you can come up with where the Suns improve, and this could be a problem. We can't tell from the outside exactly in what terms, but his presence is clearly a factor to Kieff. If he just needs to be on the same team, in his day to day life, it's not really an issue, but if Kieff needs his brother to have a significant role or spot in the rotation, it takes a serious toll on the utility they provide for the team and their status should be valued accordingly.

Ring_Wanted wrote:

SwingMan wrote: Ok - just checking.

On the other hand, if I have to choose among our guys who should be used in trades or where to upgrade, thet twins are usually first on my list, for a number of reasons.

They have their use and skills, and Kieff won us games last season, but their upside is limited, are already 24 and they'll need new contracts soon.

Marcus in particular looks like the odd man out in almost every scenario you can come up with where the Suns improve, and this could be a problem. We can't tell from the outside exactly in what terms, but his presence is clearly a factor to Kieff. If he just needs to be on the same team, in his day to day life, it's not really an issue, but if Kieff needs his brother to have a significant role or spot in the rotation, it takes a serious toll on the utility they provide for the team and their status should be valued accordingly.

I hear ya - I just don't think Marcus is that much of a drag on the team. Certainly nowhere near the drag Frye had been. I summed it up about 2/3 of the way through the season with the twins: Marcus operates from 15-24 feet & Markieff operates from 15 feet in. For a stretch, Marcus was becoming elite at rocking his man to sleep, then nailing a 20' jumper in his face - it was money until he (and most of the team, turns out) wore out down the stretch. I honestly think that, if you divide $8 million per between the twins ($5.5 for Markieff, $2.5 for Marcus), they'll bite to stay on the same team.

I envision those two anchoring the bench for years to come.....

I agree on those 8M, that's what I'd put on the table to keep them, but you also have to see what's out there, and there is also the chance that they regress. They've been productive for just 1/3 of their NBA career and midrange stuff is not exactly the most efficient way to play, if you have to listen to analytics. This is another downside to not making the playoffs. Tighter defenses could take a lot from their effectiveness, but that's another story.

Ring_Wanted wrote:I agree on those 8M, that's what I'd put on the table to keep them, but you also have to see what's out there, and there is also the chance that they regress. They've been productive for just 1/3 of their NBA career and midrange stuff is not exactly the most efficient way to play, if you have to listen to analytics. This is another downside to not making the playoffs. Tighter defenses could take a lot from their effectiveness, but that's another story.

One thing is extensions are due - if we fail to lock 'em up before the end of October, we'll either end up overpaying or lose them for nothing (not 100% sure on S&T with restricted FA's).

Far as their production, though it's clearly evident that Marcus feeds off of Markieff (and the fact that they have an almost uncanny chemistry), I think Markieff's success, while his brother helped, comes from giving him a role where he thrives, which is 6th man. If we were to snag Vonleh or Gordon with that 7th pick, we'd have a clear upgrade at the 4 while keeping Markieff in the role that best suits him (and go after McRoberts as insurance).

Gotta disagree with your take on the midrange efficiency, though - if Frye hadn't been stubborn about parking his ass 24 feet away every game, he'd have scored more efficiently and kept defenses more honest. But, he has a face-up game without the handles or quickness to drive and next to no playmaking instincts, so, staying away from any fray was his last and only option.

But, please don't get me started with the "only 1/3 of their career" stuff - the original board went damn near apoplectic when a 6 year, $50 million deal wasn't given to Joe Johnson after 1/2 of a productive season on a 29-53 team (2003-2004).

The reason you disagree on Marcus' game is related to Frye? I don't get it. If you are a 3pt shooter, that's what you do. It works the opposite way too. Sam Cassel aced his long twos and you wouldn't want thim taking 3s because theory says that's a more efficient shot. You shoot from where you are most comfortable.

Regarding the last point, I was one of those who felt that JJ hadn't done enough to warrant what he was demanding. Remember that at the time he had had just half season of actual performance. It obviously backfired, but NBA history is full of bad contracts awarded too prematurely.

I'm not sure Markieff Morris' upside is limited because he's 24, if anything he should have some room to grow IMO. He's improved every year so far, whats to say it wont continue? 18pts/8reb/2ast/1stl/1blk per 36 last year 49% from floor 80% from the FT line, that looks pretty solid to me. Bledsoe is the same age and nobody is limiting his upside.

Cant believe I've become a Markieff Morris fan.

Lots of good Suns draft tid bits in this article:

Suns' multiple picks in 1st round provide flexibility

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /11344685/

The Suns figure to be a player in the surprises and maneuvers. While Phoenix is the only team with three first-round picks (Nos. 14, 18 and 27), it is one of eight teams with multiple first-round picks — and five of those teams hold one or two picks ahead of the Suns' first spot.

The Suns will be active in some way to pare down their rookie crop. They could package to move up in the draft order, trade a pick to move into a future draft, use one or more picks to acquire a veteran or draft an international player who would remain overseas.

"We'd rather get fewer good players or a veteran who could help or spread our picks out, where we'd have maybe more firsts in the future," Suns General Manager Ryan McDonough said.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:Bledsoe is the same age and nobody is limiting hisupside.

I guess that's because Bledsoe is in another world in terms of athleticism.

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Taking Nash from the Lakers right now is not an option for the Suns, as it is, because we are not that deep under the cap, just around 5M.

What the hell are you talking about? We are way, way, way under the cap. We could sign Bledsoe to the max and fit LeBron's max on our team too.

Edit: I see what you're saying, you think we are still operating under the '13-'14 cap instead of the '14-'15 cap. Yeah, none of the deals announced between now and July 1st are even paying attention to the '13-'14 cap.

carey wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:
Taking Nash from the Lakers right now is not an option for the Suns, as it is, because we are not that deep under the cap, just around 5M.

What the hell are you talking about? We are way, way, way under the cap. We could sign Bledsoe to the max and fit LeBron's max on our team too.

We'll be way way way under the cap when the 14-15 cap year officially starts, which won't happen until July 1st. At the draft you still need to use 13-14 figures and restrictions.

Ring_Wanted wrote:
We'll be way way way under the cap when the 14-15 cap year officially starts, which won't happen until July 1st. At the draft you still need to use 13-14 figures and restrictions.

Yeah, I just figured that out, only absolutely no one pays attention to that. Almost any deal we hear about is just "agreed to" until July 1st.

How many times have we seen a team draft a guy on somebody else's command in order to trade him and complete the deal weeks later (honest question)?

Picks are moved every year at the draft and rookies shake hands with the comisioneer wearing the wrong cap, and there have been rights to rookies traded over the summer, for instance Lamb to the Thunder, but I can't remember any trade technically configured like what we'd need to get the #7 and Nash.

@ESPNAndyKatz: Zach LaVine told me he predicts Phoenix. He worked out twice for the Suns.

Happens all the time.

carey wrote:@ESPNAndyKatz: Zach LaVine told me he predicts Phoenix. He worked out twice for the Suns.

Not bad at all, but I am still hoping for Stauskas.

Ring_Wanted wrote:How many times have we seen a team draft a guy on somebody else's command in order to trade him and complete the deal weeks later (honest question)?

Picks are moved every year at the draft and rookies shake hands with the comisioneer wearing the wrong cap, and there have been rights to rookies traded over the summer, for instance Lamb to the Thunder, but I can't remember any trade technically configured like what we'd need to get the #7 and Nash.

You mean complete the deal in 5 days, not weeks?

Yeah, even 5 days. I can't think of one example, unless it is so common that it goes without saying, but that's what I don't have so clear.

Ring_Wanted wrote:Yeah, even 5 days. I can't think of one example, unless it is so common that it goes without saying, but that's what I don't have so clear.

Pretty sure that's the case. All these players for pics and stuff are really consummated on the 1st.

I don't get all the hype about Exum. Nobody has really seen him play, but we know that he isn't a great shooter and isn't a great passer. He's only 18. And he's going to be a PG? That has "bust" written all over it. I would stay far far away from that dude if I had a top-5 pick.