Russia/Ukraine

[Indy]

You continually look for every reason to defend this war from Putin's perspective. It is very weird.

I'm actually not, but every time you think me pointing out obvious propaganda is me defending the war from Putin's perspective, what does that say about you? You have nothing but come with ad hominin attacks. That's not weird what you are doing, it's what a dishonest and immoral person would do.

I am not sure you know what ad hominin attacks or strawman arguments actually are. I am not attacking you... I am continually pointing out the lack of believability and trustworthiness of the sources of information you share. But go ahead and keep calling names and using ad hominin attacks yourself.

[In2ition]

You continually look for every reason to defend this war from Putin's perspective. It is very weird.

I'm actually not, but every time you think me pointing out obvious propaganda is me defending the war from Putin's perspective, what does that say about you? You have nothing but come with ad hominin attacks. That's not weird what you are doing, it's what a dishonest and immoral person would do.

I am not sure you know what ad hominin attacks or strawman arguments actually are. I am not attacking you... I am continually pointing out the lack of believability and trustworthiness of the sources of information you share. But go ahead and keep calling names and using ad hominin attacks yourself.

Yes, you were. It's clear that you didn't watch Ukraine on Fire, because you claim it's Putin's side of the story. Then when you claim that I'm pro Putin when I'm pointing out obvious propaganda(the Ghost of Kiev has been debunked for awhile now), that is a way of attacking the messenger and not the message. It's a form of ad hominin attacks. I'm not going to say that you don't understand this, because you engage in it quite consistently.

[In2ition]

For the last f'n time, I'M NOT PRO PUTIN OR PRO RUSSIAN.

My own family from both sides of my parents immigrated from the region of the world that is western Ukraine today. They saw that the Russians were encroaching on them, they fled to the US. The ones that stayed there had their farms taken from them, and were either conscripted into fighting for the Russians or put into prison to die.

I don't understand how every piece of propaganda that's given out, is just lapped up and any pushback against it is thought of as being Pro-Putin? It's not that simple, and if it was, then they wouldn't have to keep telling lies. The truth would be all that they needed to convince people that Putin man bad. They wouldn't have to make up stories and repeat them over and over. Just like the Snake Island 13.

[Mori Chu]

I think this RUS/UKR situation is really good for shining light on how utterly shitty conservative media (social and traditional) is, and how much it rots the brains of people who are stuck swimming in it.

These posts In2 makes are just utterly preposterous and sad. The content is garbage quality, and the assertions made by that content are obviously and easily provably false. Somehow it's easier to see that when it's about another country, another place that we don't have a real strong partisan attachment to or opinion about. It just makes it really clear that conservatives are being bombarded day after day after day with garbage content like this and that it eventually all starts to seep into their brains.

Is any of it really worth responding to individually? That Oliver Stone movie was made with extensive interviews with Putin. It is widely regarded as being a fluff piece of pro-Russian propaganda, approved and funded by Russia's side. This is not journalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_on_Fire
https://www.thedailybeast.com/revealing ... s-move-yet

As for this BS about UKR bombing their own people? Sure. Show me *any* evidence of that. Or, how about we look at the mountain of evidence that Russia is there attacking cities in Ukraine? Why would anybody think that the conflict is fake, that UKR is attacking themselves? Do you see how deeply rooted in conspiracy theories all this crap is? And that clip of the lady saying UKR was bombing, is from RT, the Russian state media channel. Why would anybody repost their content as if it were factual??

At some point you just give up with this stuff. If a smart guy like In2 honestly believes stupid shit like this, he's lost. And he likely will never come back.

[In2ition]

LMAO. The Daily Beast is your go to? GMAFB

You could say the exact same thing. You have no clue which side did what. Do you understand how that works? If the Ukrainian militia bombed their own people and then blamed it on the Russians, how would you know they were lying? You wouldn't, because you aren't there. You would just believe them, because...idk, why would you believe them at their word?

Are there many Neo-Nazi militia groups in the Ukraine? Yes, that's an absolute fact.
Have they killed many of their own people? Yes, that's a fact too.
Did the Kiev government build a damn to shut off the only fresh water supply to Crimea? Yes, they did.
Was that a crime against humanity? Yes, it was.
Did the Russians blow up that damn in this "invasion" to release the water to Crimea? Yes, they did.
Is Putin to be trusted? No, he's not to be trusted.

Easily provably false you say? Go ahead, be my guest. Prove me wrong. Don't just say it, do it. If you actually prove them false, I will acknowledge your skill. Posting garbage from the Daily Beast doesn't count.

[Mori Chu]

Honestly, the stuff you're posting just isn't worth engaging with. I think the best reaction is none at all. I hope you have a good day.

[AmareIsGod]

Whatever side is to believed here, and there is clearly a long standing history between these countries that I'm not aware of, is it not a bit alarming that Russia is shutting down social media in their own country, arresting protestors and imprisoning them along with looking at citizens phones and arresting them if they refuse to see what is being said, what is being done and that all social media apps are removed? You'd think the side not at fault would be in full favor of transparency.

Again, I freely admit that I don't have a fraction of the knowledge of the history of this region of the world recently. I do think the actions Russia is taking are beyond extreme in preventing free speech at the moment. The same rights of citizens that have vanished in China are turning into the same situation for the people of Russia. It's scary.

[Mori Chu]

Looks like they're working on banning Russian oil. Gas prices may go up, but this is the way to fight back against Russia without starting a hot war.

[In2ition]

At least they can't be accused anymore of funding the Russian's side by purchasing their oil as the price of crude continues to climb.

[In2ition]

Whatever side is to believed here, and there is clearly a long standing history between these countries that I'm not aware of, is it not a bit alarming that Russia is shutting down social media in their own country, arresting protestors and imprisoning them along with looking at citizens phones and arresting them if they refuse to see what is being said, what is being done and that all social media apps are removed? You'd think the side not at fault would be in full favor of transparency.

Again, I freely admit that I don't have a fraction of the knowledge of the history of this region of the world recently. I do think the actions Russia is taking are beyond extreme in preventing free speech at the moment. The same rights of citizens that have vanished in China are turning into the same situation for the people of Russia. It's scary.

I agree, that is concerning. You could add to that the law passed that they would arrest anyone that posted fake news. Then all the news outlets like CNN said, "we're done, bye bye."

[Nodack]

Of course CNN and every other western media left. They were going to be arrested by Putin for fake news. Only pro-Russia news is real.

In2, you have clearly swallowed the Putin propaganda. You say you aren’t a Putin guy but, 100% of your posts come from his perspective. You call all the west news propaganda and promote Russian propaganda as the truth. Is it even possible that some of the accounts of what’s happening in Ukraine by the Russian media is not entirely truthful?

Russia massed troops at the border. Biden said they were getting ready to go in. Putin said they were just practicing drills. China was mad Biden was scaring people be saying Russia is going to invade. Some people joked, “What day are they going in again?” (Snicker). Russia went in. Some people said they weren't really invading. They were just a peacekeeping group. Now Putin is IN and 100% committed to taking over Ukraine. Biden was right. Putin lied. China still blames Biden.

Biden is threading the needle rallying the world trying to prevent WWIII and is doing a great job with little support back home. The RINO’s (Moderates) are on board. The magapsycho wing of the party can stay in their little conspiracy corner. They offer nothing constructive on any issue.

The Soviet Union was disbanded. Putin wants it all back. He got away with annexing Georgia. He took Belarus without a shot. He took Crimea and nobody stopped him. Now he is taking the rest of Ukraine and is getting heavy resistance. No video is going to justify Putin launching a war on a peaceful sovereign nation. Who’s next? Poland? Is it Putin’s Manifest destiny to retake the Soviet Union? NATO is encroaching because countries would rather be part of the West than part of the Soviet Union. Putin is having a freak out over that. Sorry Putin. You don’t get to decide other nations direction. If we wanted to go full blown Communist like China we could and Canada and Mexico wouldn’t get to have any say in the matter.

[Mori Chu]

[Nodack]

A local store owner moves in and the mafia tells the owner that they are willing to provide protection for a price. The store owner says, “No thanks, I will just call the police if I have a problem”. The mafia breaks the store owners leg and tells him they will burn down his business and kill his family if he doesn’t agree to their agreement. The store owner still defiant tells them to kiss off. The mafia burns down his business and kills his family. Their lawyer defended the mafia in court by saying it was the store owners fault for not agreeing to their demands and it was the police’s fault for not stopping them in time. In addition, the store owner said some very unkind words to the defendant after the store owners family was killed and those words caused lots of pain and suffering.

[In2ition]

Of course CNN and every other western media left. They were going to be arrested by Putin for fake news. Only pro-Russia news is real.

In2, you have clearly swallowed the Putin propaganda. You say you aren’t a Putin guy but, 100% of your posts come from his perspective. You call all the west news propaganda and promote Russian propaganda as the truth. Is it even possible that some of the accounts of what’s happening in Ukraine by the Russian media is not entirely truthful?

Russia massed troops at the border. Biden said they were getting ready to go in. Putin said they were just practicing drills. China was mad Biden was scaring people be saying Russia is going to invade. Some people joked, “What day are they going in again?” (Snicker). Russia went in. Some people said they weren't really invading. They were just a peacekeeping group. Now Putin is IN and 100% committed to taking over Ukraine. Biden was right. Putin lied. China still blames Biden.

Biden is threading the needle rallying the world trying to prevent WWIII and is doing a great job with little support back home. The RINO’s (Moderates) are on board. The magapsycho wing of the party can stay in their little conspiracy corner. They offer nothing constructive on any issue.

The Soviet Union was disbanded. Putin wants it all back. He got away with annexing Georgia. He took Belarus without a shot. He took Crimea and nobody stopped him. Now he is taking the rest of Ukraine and is getting heavy resistance. No video is going to justify Putin launching a war on a peaceful sovereign nation. Who’s next? Poland? Is it Putin’s Manifest destiny to retake the Soviet Union? NATO is encroaching because countries would rather be part of the West than part of the Soviet Union. Putin is having a freak out over that. Sorry Putin. You don’t get to decide other nations direction. If we wanted to go full blown Communist like China we could and Canada and Mexico wouldn’t get to have any say in the matter.

You may be right about his intentions. It may be more than that too. Maybe his intentions are to be Supreme ruler of the . Or you may have over analyzed this. You think you know what's going on. You simplify the situation so that the world works in the way that makes sense to you. It's not quite as simple as a mafia analogy, sorry to say.

It's funny you made that analogy though. I just happened to rewatch The Godfather with my wife last night.

If you don't understand how NATO expanding, after they promised not to, is a threat to Russia, I don't know what to tell you to help you understand.

[Indy]

Of course CNN and every other western media left. They were going to be arrested by Putin for fake news. Only pro-Russia news is real.

In2, you have clearly swallowed the Putin propaganda. You say you aren’t a Putin guy but, 100% of your posts come from his perspective. You call all the west news propaganda and promote Russian propaganda as the truth. Is it even possible that some of the accounts of what’s happening in Ukraine by the Russian media is not entirely truthful?

Russia massed troops at the border. Biden said they were getting ready to go in. Putin said they were just practicing drills. China was mad Biden was scaring people be saying Russia is going to invade. Some people joked, “What day are they going in again?” (Snicker). Russia went in. Some people said they weren't really invading. They were just a peacekeeping group. Now Putin is IN and 100% committed to taking over Ukraine. Biden was right. Putin lied. China still blames Biden.

Biden is threading the needle rallying the world trying to prevent WWIII and is doing a great job with little support back home. The RINO’s (Moderates) are on board. The magapsycho wing of the party can stay in their little conspiracy corner. They offer nothing constructive on any issue.

The Soviet Union was disbanded. Putin wants it all back. He got away with annexing Georgia. He took Belarus without a shot. He took Crimea and nobody stopped him. Now he is taking the rest of Ukraine and is getting heavy resistance. No video is going to justify Putin launching a war on a peaceful sovereign nation. Who’s next? Poland? Is it Putin’s Manifest destiny to retake the Soviet Union? NATO is encroaching because countries would rather be part of the West than part of the Soviet Union. Putin is having a freak out over that. Sorry Putin. You don’t get to decide other nations direction. If we wanted to go full blown Communist like China we could and Canada and Mexico wouldn’t get to have any say in the matter.

You may be right about his intentions. It may be more than that too. Maybe his intentions are to be Supreme ruler of the . Or you may have over analyzed this. You think you know what's going on. You simplify the situation so that the world works in the way that makes sense to you. It's not quite as simple as a mafia analogy, sorry to say.

It's funny you made that analogy though. I just happened to rewatch The Godfather with my wife last night.

If you don't understand how NATO expanding, after they promised not to, is a threat to Russia, I don't know what to tell you to help you understand.

Now you are just repeating Candace Owen's false statements.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ent-again/

[Mori Chu]

I would concede that NATO expansion is contrary to Russia's interests. But NATO doesn't pre-emptively attack Russia. It's a defense pact. If Russia attacks one NATO country, the others would rise to its defense. It's meant to prevent hot wars, not start them. NATO isn't a "threat" to Russia in that sense; if Russia doesn't try to start WWIII, they have nothing to worry about. My evidence for this is the literally decades where NATO has not been hostile to Russia.

Also, NATO doesn't "promise" to refrain from expanding. They can expand whenever they want. Saying, "You promised not to expand, but then you expanded! Now I will attack a neighboring nation." is lunacy.

[Nodack]

Russia promised to protect Ukraine from an invasion and then invaded. That’s pretty much breaking a promise isn’t it?

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... v-says-no/
Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.

[In2ition]

Of course CNN and every other western media left. They were going to be arrested by Putin for fake news. Only pro-Russia news is real.

In2, you have clearly swallowed the Putin propaganda. You say you aren’t a Putin guy but, 100% of your posts come from his perspective. You call all the west news propaganda and promote Russian propaganda as the truth. Is it even possible that some of the accounts of what’s happening in Ukraine by the Russian media is not entirely truthful?

Russia massed troops at the border. Biden said they were getting ready to go in. Putin said they were just practicing drills. China was mad Biden was scaring people be saying Russia is going to invade. Some people joked, “What day are they going in again?” (Snicker). Russia went in. Some people said they weren't really invading. They were just a peacekeeping group. Now Putin is IN and 100% committed to taking over Ukraine. Biden was right. Putin lied. China still blames Biden.

Biden is threading the needle rallying the world trying to prevent WWIII and is doing a great job with little support back home. The RINO’s (Moderates) are on board. The magapsycho wing of the party can stay in their little conspiracy corner. They offer nothing constructive on any issue.

The Soviet Union was disbanded. Putin wants it all back. He got away with annexing Georgia. He took Belarus without a shot. He took Crimea and nobody stopped him. Now he is taking the rest of Ukraine and is getting heavy resistance. No video is going to justify Putin launching a war on a peaceful sovereign nation. Who’s next? Poland? Is it Putin’s Manifest destiny to retake the Soviet Union? NATO is encroaching because countries would rather be part of the West than part of the Soviet Union. Putin is having a freak out over that. Sorry Putin. You don’t get to decide other nations direction. If we wanted to go full blown Communist like China we could and Canada and Mexico wouldn’t get to have any say in the matter.

You may be right about his intentions. It may be more than that too. Maybe his intentions are to be Supreme ruler of the . Or you may have over analyzed this. You think you know what's going on. You simplify the situation so that the world works in the way that makes sense to you. It's not quite as simple as a mafia analogy, sorry to say.

It's funny you made that analogy though. I just happened to rewatch The Godfather with my wife last night.

If you don't understand how NATO expanding, after they promised not to, is a threat to Russia, I don't know what to tell you to help you understand.

Now you are just repeating Candace Owen's false statements.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ent-again/

I had no idea that she said that, so I didn't repeat or plagiarize her. So it's completely false now? I thought that the most high truth above all truth Politfact said it's "mostly false", meaning there is some validity in it and therefore could be a bone of contention. Now, do you need me to also explain to you why this would bother Russia, or are you going to claim I'm plagiarizing or disparage me in some other way instead of debating the issue? I've been called Pro-Putin, "swallowed the Putin propaganda", ect. Yet, at no time have you taken a breath and stopped to think, "am I actually getting the truth and full picture on anything that is or has happened?"

[In2ition]

I would concede that NATO expansion is contrary to Russia's interests. But NATO doesn't pre-emptively attack Russia. It's a defense pact. If Russia attacks one NATO country, the others would rise to its defense. It's meant to prevent hot wars, not start them. NATO isn't a "threat" to Russia in that sense; if Russia doesn't try to start WWIII, they have nothing to worry about. My evidence for this is the literally decades where NATO has not been hostile to Russia.

Also, NATO doesn't "promise" to refrain from expanding. They can expand whenever they want. Saying, "You promised not to expand, but then you expanded! Now I will attack a neighboring nation." is lunacy.

But how could Russia believe that they never would attack Russia? They have many examples of NATO attacking other sovereign countries at the behest of the US over lies, do they not? Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, even Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin incident)
What stops the US from creating another lie to start another war w/ Russia? Putting bases right on the border of Russia seems pretty advantageous of NATO. This isn’t a great leap logic or stretch of the imagination.

[Nodack]

Of course NATO expanding would bother Putin. NATO was formed to protect against a Russian invasion. I can totally see where he feels threatened by NATO.

Candice Owens - “NATO (under direction from the United States) is violating previous agreements and expanding eastward.”

Fact-checking claims that NATO, US broke agreement against alliance expanding eastward
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ent-again/
Our ruling
Owens said, "NATO (under direction from the United States) is violating previous agreements and expanding eastward."

There is an ongoing historical debate over comments that Western leaders, including Baker, made during post-Cold War negotiations, and whether what they said amounted to assurances that NATO would refrain from welcoming in countries closer to modern-day Russia.

But NATO as an organization made no such pledge, and the formal agreement signed at the end of those negotiations said nothing about the alliance not expanding eastward.
The agreement was verbal and it was made before the breakup of the Soviet Union. It was made during the negotiations of Germany reunifying. There was never any signed agreement just like the pact to defend Ukraine from attack that Russia, China, US and France made. You would think Russia attacking Ukraine would be violating the agreement to protect them but, I guess not.

We rate this claim Mostly False.