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Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:16 pm
by JeremyG
specialsauce wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:57 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:59 pm
Prediction: Ayton will end up with a better career than Doncic.
Loll
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
Harden could average 3 ppg and 10 turnovers for the rest of his career and it would still shit on DA.
Get an All-Star bid first at least before you can even sniff any discussion like that
TOO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:29 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:57 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:59 pm
Prediction: Ayton will end up with a better career than Doncic.
Loll
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
James Harden is a first ballot hall of famer.
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:51 am
I would be delighted if Ayton's career turned out as successful as James Harden's.
I have no idea why my posts are so often so badly misinterpreted. I said nothing about comparing Ayton's career to Harden's.
I said Luka's value could drop way sooner than Harden's did.
And that part was not even about comparing entire careers, but was in response to: "No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever."
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:15 am
by virtual9mm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:17 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:55 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:54 am
virtual9mm wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:39 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:30 pm
It's not even about Doncic. It's about all the generational talent talk, walking around in a Suns jersey before even picked, the empty promises about turning it on and dominating, Ryan's asinine 1-on-none draft workout praise, the talking heads insisting it just had to be Ayton, blah blah blah.
A bit early to judge, dont you think?
Way too early. Let’s revisit in 5 years.
We coming up on 5 years
Yeah, it’s been long enough now.
Absolutely.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:06 am
by Kryptonic
Yet it won’t ever die
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:20 am
by specialsauce
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:16 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
Harden could average 3 ppg and 10 turnovers for the rest of his career and it would still shit on DA.
Get an All-Star bid first at least before you can even sniff any discussion like that
TOO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:29 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
James Harden is a first ballot hall of famer.
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:51 am
I would be delighted if Ayton's career turned out as successful as James Harden's.
I have no idea why my posts are so often so badly misinterpreted. I said nothing about comparing Ayton's career to Harden's.
I said Luka's value could drop way sooner than Harden's did.
And that part was not even about comparing entire careers, but was in response to: "No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever."
It’s not you, it’s everyone else!
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:25 am
by TOO
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:16 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
Harden could average 3 ppg and 10 turnovers for the rest of his career and it would still shit on DA.
Get an All-Star bid first at least before you can even sniff any discussion like that
TOO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:29 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
James Harden is a first ballot hall of famer.
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:51 am
I would be delighted if Ayton's career turned out as successful as James Harden's.
I have no idea why my posts are so often so badly misinterpreted. I said nothing about comparing Ayton's career to Harden's.
I said Luka's value could drop way sooner than Harden's did.
And that part was not even about comparing entire careers, but was in response to: "No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever."
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
by Mori Chu
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:13 am
by specialsauce
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
He’s saying at one point Ayton may be better than Doncic. Like if Doncic blows out both ACLs and tries to play through it, they would be equal in talent and impact at that point
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:04 pm
by TOO
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
There isn't one.
Trolls gonna troll.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:42 pm
by JeremyG
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:57 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:59 pm
Prediction: Ayton will end up with a better career than Doncic.
Loll
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
First, let's stop talking about Harden. There was no comparison of Ayton with Harden in that post.
"It's actually still very possible." = At the end of their careers, Ayton could still end up with the better career, which is what I predicted in the old post that was bumped. That possibility still exists because they have only played five seasons each.
"Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast." = Ayton could surpass Doncic's value in the league at some point in time if Doncic's value tanks.
The first scenario, and perhaps both scenarios, would require Ayton to improve and Doncic to drop off. I never said anything about Ayton's production staying the same.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:54 pm
by specialsauce
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:42 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 8:57 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:59 pm
Prediction: Ayton will end up with a better career than Doncic.
Loll
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
First, let's stop talking about Harden. There was no comparison of Ayton with Harden in that post.
"It's actually still very possible." = At the end of their careers, Ayton could still end up with the better career, which is what I predicted in the old post that was bumped. That possibility still exists because they have only played five seasons each.
"Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast." = Ayton could surpass Doncic's value in the league at some point in time if Doncic's value tanks.
The first scenario, and perhaps both scenarios, would require Ayton to improve and Doncic to drop off. I never said anything about Ayton's production staying the same.
Sure, and there’s a possibility my balls touch the surface of Mars. If we’re just going to throw out dreams
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:20 pm
by Kryptonic
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:42 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
First, let's stop talking about Harden. There was no comparison of Ayton with Harden in that post.
"It's actually still very possible." = At the end of their careers, Ayton could still end up with the better career, which is what I predicted in the old post that was bumped. That possibility still exists because they have only played five seasons each.
"Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast." = Ayton could surpass Doncic's value in the league at some point in time if Doncic's value tanks.
The first scenario, and perhaps both scenarios, would require Ayton to improve and Doncic to drop off. I never said anything about Ayton's production staying the same.
Sure, and there’s a possibility my balls touch the surface of Mars. If we’re just going to throw out dreams
Elon?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:28 pm
by SunsRIt
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:42 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
First, let's stop talking about Harden. There was no comparison of Ayton with Harden in that post.
"It's actually still very possible." = At the end of their careers, Ayton could still end up with the better career, which is what I predicted in the old post that was bumped. That possibility still exists because they have only played five seasons each.
"Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast." = Ayton could surpass Doncic's value in the league at some point in time if Doncic's value tanks.
The first scenario, and perhaps both scenarios, would require Ayton to improve and Doncic to drop off. I never said anything about Ayton's production staying the same.
Sure, and there’s a possibility my balls touch the surface of Mars. If we’re just going to throw out dreams
Wait that’s a dream of yours? Okay, didn’t see that one coming.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:38 pm
by Carno
I going to back Jeremy on this one. Whiley very unlikely Ayton ends up better, both players are still very young and have lots of careers ahead of them. Ayton can still figure it out and be a valuable player. Doncic, imo, is way overrated. He fills the box score and is talented, but I think he ends up more like Carmelo Anthony where is just isn't a winning player. Again, it's a small chance that Ayton ends up better.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:09 pm
by Split T
I kinda think Luka is gonna win MVP this year. A lot of people are saying he’s in the best shape of his life(just had a great first game in the World Cup). We’ve reached the era where you don’t have to be on a good team to win MVP either. He’s gonna drop 33/11/11 and get Dallas the 6th seed and win MVP. But then probably lose in the 1st round.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:16 pm
by specialsauce
SunsRIt wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:28 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:54 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:42 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:57 am
I can't think of an interpretation of JG's post that makes sense. Is Ayton better than Luka? No. Is he as good as Harden? No. Will his career turn out as good as either of those guys'? No. Will people suddenly like Ayton better if "Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0"? No. What way can this be interpreted where Ayton wins against either of those much better and much more accomplished players?
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:11 pm
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:30 am
Boy that aged well…. Lmao. No way Ayton touches Lukas value… ever.
It's actually still very possible. Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast.
First, let's stop talking about Harden. There was no comparison of Ayton with Harden in that post.
"It's actually still very possible." = At the end of their careers, Ayton could still end up with the better career, which is what I predicted in the old post that was bumped. That possibility still exists because they have only played five seasons each.
"Just wait until Doncic ends up like Harden 2.0...could be at a way younger age too. You forget about the NBA's rich history of megastars who just aren't winners and lose value fast." = Ayton could surpass Doncic's value in the league at some point in time if Doncic's value tanks.
The first scenario, and perhaps both scenarios, would require Ayton to improve and Doncic to drop off. I never said anything about Ayton's production staying the same.
Sure, and there’s a possibility my balls touch the surface of Mars. If we’re just going to throw out dreams
Wait that’s a dream of yours? Okay, didn’t see that one coming.
Isn’t that your dream too? Just me?
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:34 am
by TOO
Carno wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:38 pm
I going to back Jeremy on this one. Whiley very unlikely Ayton ends up better, both players are still very young and have lots of careers ahead of them. Ayton can still figure it out and be a valuable player. Doncic, imo, is way overrated. He fills the box score and is talented, but I think he ends up more like Carmelo Anthony where is just isn't a winning player. Again, it's a small chance that Ayton ends up better.
Remember when fans/media would shit on Booker just because it was the cool thing to do and Suns fans got all in their feelings about it, you guys are doing the same thing with Luka. There is no chance Ayton is ever in the same league as Luka. Absolutely delusional.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:25 am
by Carno
I don't like definitives, and I'm definitely not delusional.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:29 am
by Split T
I would love if someone could find a historical example of two players this far apart in play after 5 years, where the lesser player ends up better at some point. I don’t think there will be any good examples that don’t include the better player having a major career altering injury.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:42 am
by Cap
Split T wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:29 am
I would love if someone could find a historical example of two players this far apart in play after 5 years, where the lesser player ends up better at some point. I don’t think there will be any good examples that don’t include the better player having a major career altering injury.
If there is an example, it probably involves Steve Nash. His first five seasons in the league he accomplished even less than DA has so far, but he eventually became a two-time MVP.
Antoine Walker, taken in the same draft, did a lot more than Nash in those first five years, but ultimately Nash had the better, more meaningful career.
Damon Stoudamire, taken a year earlier, was also far better than Nash through five years.
Re: All Things Ayton
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:56 am
by Split T
Here’s the best one I found:
Player 1: 31/4/5 with 2.5 steals 42/32/81 splits for a .518 TS%. BPM of 6.1 and WS/48 of .190
Player 2: 16/3/7 with 1 steal. 49/41/90 splits for a
.603 TS%. BPM of 2.8 and WS/48 of .169
5 years later:
Player 1: 26/3/7 with 2 steals. 44/32/80 splits for a .540 TS%. BPM of 1.8 and WS/48 of .108
Player 2: 19/4/12 with 1 steal. 53/46/90 splits for a .654 TS%. BPM of 5.9 and WS/48 of .225
That gap isn’t nearly as big to me though. Player 2 was just underrated and we didn’t realize yet that his offensive efficiency was a major plus. Player 1 was MVP in that 5th year, player 2 won back to back MVPs in years 8 and 9, but year 10 was probably his best.
If you haven’t figured it out, Iverson is player 1 and Nash is player 2. But this also has to do with Nash being a late bloomer. Iverson was the 1st overall pick, just like Ayton. You could argue that Ayton started ahead of Luka(or was on the same level) and then fell way behind. But I do get that not being completely fair. Luka won MVP while Ayton was getting beat by a mid major school. McD just drafted the wrong guy 1st.
Still the point is Nash started way behind AI and caught up. Ayton started much closer to Luka and fell behind. I think there’s basically zero chance Ayton is ever better than Luka(without a major career altering injury).
Edit: Great minds Cap, I figured it’d have to be Nash as well