Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote:Defense will be the make or break point for Ayton. He hasn't been very good but he has all the tools. If he can't be a positive contributor on that end, he's not going to be a star.

I have no doubt that Doncic is a very good player. My only question will be how he handles NBA athleticism.

I think Ayton has a higher ceiling and there is a better chance he ends up a star. While I don't think he's really a bust candidate, I also think there's a better chance he ends up just ok.

Doncic to me is safer. His peak might only be somewhere around Joe Johnson/Gordon Hayward/Manu but I feel pretty good he's at least Nic Batum.

Ayton could be Embiid/Cousins/Towns, but he could also be Drummond or athletic Kanter.

I'm not ready to write off Bagley either. I think there's almost zero chance we draft him but he's the safest player in the top to me. He's at least an athletic version of Randle with a jumpshot.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:I think Ayton can be a good defender, but I wouldnt at all be surprised if he's Drummond from 2 years ago, not a great defensively, but will score and dominate the glass. He wont the be FT liability though, so that is a big step up.

Split T wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:Guys, there was a change in NBA rules a while ago. The game is a lot less physical than it was. Speed is more important than strength now.
You can no longer push a guy to get post position the way you used to. You've got to establish position by getting to the spot first.
If you hit a guy while making your move it is now an offensive foul. You have to make your move around the defender with agility, not through him with strength.

There has also been a change in player talent. Guys are quicker, more agile, and better shooters.
In the old days, team's only had one or 2 guys on the floor who could shoot. You HAD to shoot it close because those were the only shots players could make. Now, teams routinely put 4 shooters on the court.
In the old days, teams only had 1 or 2 guys who were a threat to dribble. Now, teams routinely put 5 guys on the court who can drive to the basket.

IMO: a post up game is still a useful skill, but it will never again be a primary skill. It's a secondary skill. You let perimeter movement create mismatches, and the player is quick enough to dive and smart crafty enough to get a good shot before the defense can react. You cannot play inside-out, because the good coaches aren't dumb enough to double team a player in the post.

Have you watched Ayton? He's not bulldozing people like Shaq. He's very quick, agile, and athletic in the post.

Split T wrote:

Cap wrote:

Split T wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:Guys, there was a change in NBA rules a while ago. The game is a lot less physical than it was. Speed is more important than strength now.
You can no longer push a guy to get post position the way you used to. You've got to establish position by getting to the spot first.
If you hit a guy while making your move it is now an offensive foul. You have to make your move around the defender with agility, not through him with strength.

There has also been a change in player talent. Guys are quicker, more agile, and better shooters.
In the old days, team's only had one or 2 guys on the floor who could shoot. You HAD to shoot it close because those were the only shots players could make. Now, teams routinely put 4 shooters on the court.
In the old days, teams only had 1 or 2 guys who were a threat to dribble. Now, teams routinely put 5 guys on the court who can drive to the basket.

IMO: a post up game is still a useful skill, but it will never again be a primary skill. It's a secondary skill. You let perimeter movement create mismatches, and the player is quick enough to dive and smart crafty enough to get a good shot before the defense can react. You cannot play inside-out, because the good coaches aren't dumb enough to double team a player in the post.

Have you watched Ayton? He's not bulldozing people like Shaq. He's very quick, agile, and athletic in the post.

I think it’s still possible for a great big (if that’s what Ayton turns out being) to use post ups efficiently, as long as he’s not overly reliant on them. His ability to pass, move and shoot means you can’t take them away by putting a moose on him. (Well, you can, but he’ll punish you in other ways if you do.) If he only posts up as circumstances dictate, rather than forcing the post ups, I think he can be efficient with them. And if that’s true, he may be one of the few remaining players in the league who can.

That's how I view him. I don't think posting up Ayton is going to be a go to move. It'll be situational and used to keep teams from switching. GS wouldn't be able to switch a Booker/Ayton pick and roll because Ayton would destroy Klay in the post

JCSunsfan wrote:This is the only board I know of that is so infatuated with Doncic. He is a great player, but Ayton is the choice at #1. Ayton is unstoppable on offense, an excellent passer, already a good shooter in the midrange and has a better shooting percentage than Doncic from the three right now. Now the Euro three is longer, and Doncic takes a lot more, so I am not saying that Ayton is a better shooter. Ayton has the best combination of size, strength and agility coming out since AD, maybe since Shaq. His hands are like butter. He catches everything. UofA's coaching was horrendous. Ayton spent all year guarding wings at the 3 point line. Watch the tape. He needs some defensive coaching but he has the physical tools. Doncic works hard on D and his fundamentals on D are very good, he lacks the physical tools. Which player will a coach think he can help more? Ayton's footwork is amazing. He has very fast feet and he is amazingly quick down the floor. He started out in sports playing soccer like Hakeem.

Doncic will be a great player, maybe an all-star. Ayton could be a generational big. He is stronger and faster than KAT. He is faster than Embiid and does not have the injury issues. He has way way beyond Capella or Gobert offensively.

AmareIsGod wrote: If people have issues with Ayton's defense, do you think Bagley is better? His defense is atrocious.

JustWinBaby wrote: INFO - are there any legit defensive - rebounding Bigs we could get later in the draft.

INFORMER wrote:

AmareIsGod wrote: If people have issues with Ayton's defense, do you think Bagley is better? His defense is atrocious.

Yep.

Xylus wrote:How far do you guys think Michael Porter Jr falls, and how far is too far?

iLLmatic wrote:How pissed would everyone be if we took Bamba number 1.

iLLmatic wrote:How pissed would everyone be if we took Bamba number 1.

INFORMER wrote:I don't really see a basis for calling Ayton "unstoppable" on offense.

At the NBA level, I think might have a harder time on the offensive end. He really isn't that good at catching the ball on the move, which will limit his screen and roll utility. He isn't an explosive finisher around the basket. And I don't think he is going to be able to hit the NBA 3 at a decent clip; his shooting form doesn't seem conducive to it.

AmareIsGod wrote:

INFORMER wrote:

AmareIsGod wrote: If people have issues with Ayton's defense, do you think Bagley is better? His defense is atrocious.

Yep.

Yep? As in, Bagley is better?

INFORMER wrote:I don't really see a basis for calling Ayton "unstoppable" on offense.

At the NBA level, I think might have a harder time on the offensive end. He really isn't that good at catching the ball on the move, which will limit his screen and roll utility. He isn't an explosive finisher around the basket. And I don't think he is going to be able to hit the NBA 3 at a decent clip; his shooting form doesn't seem conducive to it.