Phx-Suns.Net

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:06 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:37 am

It's maybe not exactly apples to apples, but we had Bodganovic who was doing big things in Europe, putting up numbers, hitting big shots, winning a bunch and he was solid but not spectacular with the Kings. He came over as an older player, more of a SG, and was playing on a bad team but wasn't exactly lighting it up.

I still think Doncic will be great, but it's food for thought.

Food for worry!

With all these guys, Bogdonovic included, it's how much they are going to improve. I don't know how to evaluate that except for past precedent and gut feeling.

All right, so I put the worry on hold and spent some thought on the comparison between Bogdan and Luka. Euro fans, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Bogdan is a fiery competitor and has a solid basketball mind. He's a scorer who can shoot and has good court vision and passing skills. He started his 5 year pro career in EuroLeague at the age of 20. He did not play in Liga ACB at all. As a rookie he hardly played and put up numbers that reminded me of an 18 year old Dragan Bender. For the next 3 years, he was a big part of the rotation, scored a lot, passed well, and shot pretty god from 3. He didn't shoot so well inside the arc. In his 5th and final season, his shooting %s everywhere on the court skyrocketted, and the rest of his game remained consistent. His team won a lot of games during that stretch, and continues to be good without him - it's a good team. That's a good euroleague resume.

What makes Luka stand out is how much impact he's had in his short years (and minutes) on the court.

For the las 3 seasons (ages 16-18), Luka has played in both leagues each season. He plays more games in one year than Bogdan played in 2. Luka's minutes are predictably fewer than the older Bogdan, and we see them rise as he ages. But even at 17 years old and only playing 19 minutes per game, Luka averaged the same assists as Bogdan had in his career best passing season - while turning the ball over half as much. Luka also grabbed more rebounds, scored well, and shot well. Again, this is in far fewer minutes per game and over a much much longer stretch of games. That was before he blew up last season and started dominating. His number this season eclipse Bogdan's career highs in every area except shooting %, and Luka's shooting numbers are just fine. And I want to point out that Luka's per-36 numbers have been fairly consistent over the last 3 years. There's improvement, but the all around game was there even at 16 when he averaged better than 12/7/5 with a steal and a block per 36 in the same professional grownup leagues.

The story surrounding Luka Doncic sounds like hyperbole, but the numbers back it up. He really does play in both leagues at a very young age. He really does win. And he really does have a huge impact all over the box score. Even if his per-36 number drop, they are still good numbers. If they go up, he's a star.

edit: here's the stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... vic-1.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... cic-1.html

Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:48 am

In2ition wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:39 am

Unfortunately, he wanted a lot more money than a rookie contract. The Suns at the time weren't in the position to give him that much in relation to their plan and timeline. It's unfortunate that he didn't come over in a Suns uniform. I thought they did the best they could at the time. If he would have waited another 2 yrs to come over or come over 2 years earlier, I'm sure it would have turned out differently.

Not buying this at all. The Suns have had enough flexibility to pay him without problem, but they just didn't value him enough (like some posters on here, with all due respect). Or more accurately, they wanted Chriss much more. From day 1 I was saying Bogdanovic was a winner and a keeper who would have given us a lot of the things we currently lack, but sadly the organization overvalued Chriss to an absurd degree. Bah.

Bogdan makes TJ Warren $, and is probably a better fit for the team. It's only 6 million more than Chriss. Like 'Bone said, let's hope we eat our words.

We screwed up the Bogdan/Chriss trade, but neither player looks like a star. I'm disappointed in that outcome but won't fret too much over it. It isn't as bad a mistake as, say, trading the Lakers pick for Brandon Knight. Or drafting Alex Len at #5 only to poorly develop him and then let him leave for nothing.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:01 am

All right, so I put the worry on hold and spent some thought on the comparison between Bogdan and Luka. Euro fans, please correct me if I'm wrong:
...
edit: here's the stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... vic-1.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... cic-1.html

You summed it up pretty well I think, the only correction I can make is about the number of games. Euroleague is a league of the best basketball teams from all over Europe. In addition to that teams also play in their national leagues, which is ACB in Spain for Luka and it was the Turkish league for Bogdan with Fenerbahce. For some reason bball-ref includes stats from ACB games but not from the Turkish league, where Bogdan played additional 30+ games per year. So they are closer in the number of games played per year but I did not check Bogdan's stats in the Turkish league. There are also national cups which add an extra few games that are probably not counted for either of them on bball-ref. And of course Eurobasket. About an NBA regular season worth of games overall.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:37 am

It's maybe not exactly apples to apples, but we had Bodganovic who was doing big things in Europe, putting up numbers, hitting big shots, winning a bunch and he was solid but not spectacular with the Kings. He came over as an older player, more of a SG, and was playing on a bad team but wasn't exactly lighting it up.

I still think Doncic will be great, but it's food for thought.

That doesn't help me. I hated the Bogdanovic pick.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:28 am

Speaking of Bogdan, I wish we would have kept him instead of trading for Chriss.

I don't want either of them. The trade made me upset because: 1) I didn't value Chriss as a prospect, 2) I felt we could have done better in a trade using the rights to Bogdan

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1007408398344773632 I like Donte. There are a few guys I like more though and we could maybe trade back if he's our guy. Would Atlanta do 16/31 for 19/27? Seems fair. Depends on who Atlanta has their eye on.

Hermen wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:42 pm

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:01 am

All right, so I put the worry on hold and spent some thought on the comparison between Bogdan and Luka. Euro fans, please correct me if I'm wrong:
...
edit: here's the stats

https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... vic-1.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/eu ... cic-1.html

You summed it up pretty well I think, the only correction I can make is about the number of games. Euroleague is a league of the best basketball teams from all over Europe. In addition to that teams also play in their national leagues, which is ACB in Spain for Luka and it was the Turkish league for Bogdan with Fenerbahce. For some reason bball-ref includes stats from ACB games but not from the Turkish league, where Bogdan played additional 30+ games per year. So they are closer in the number of games played per year but I did not check Bogdan's stats in the Turkish league. There are also national cups which add an extra few games that are probably not counted for either of them on bball-ref. And of course Eurobasket. About an NBA regular season worth of games overall.

Right on. Thanks for the clarification on the games.

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:14 pm

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1007408398344773632 I like Donte. There are a few guys I like more though and we could maybe trade back if he's our guy. Would Atlanta do 16/31 for 19/27? Seems fair. Depends on who Atlanta has their eye on.

I also like him a lot, but I have a feeling there will be higher ceiling guys at 16. I wouldn't be upset if we got him at 16, just a little skeptical about who we would've passed on to take him there.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:57 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:28 am

Speaking of Bogdan, I wish we would have kept him instead of trading for Chriss.

I don't want either of them. The trade made me upset because: 1) I didn't value Chriss as a prospect, 2) I felt we could have done better in a trade using the rights to Bogdan

What's your issue with Bogdan? You don't think he would be a good back up for Booker?

There is nothing about him that impresses me.

And the only role we are carving out for him is backing up Booker?! That is basically 10 mpg.

No way Bogdan would be getting only 10mpg. He can play perfectly off Booker and would also be able to run the pick and roll. Basically you have your 6th man in the mold of Ginobili. The guy was a great pick at #27, but in true Suns fashion, they squandered it. Booker, Bogdan, a 3d PG and you are set at guards.

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:14 pm

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1007408398344773632 I like Donte. There are a few guys I like more though and we could maybe trade back if he's our guy. Would Atlanta do 16/31 for 19/27? Seems fair. Depends on who Atlanta has their eye on.

#27 belongs to BOS. ATL has HOU's #30.

Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with DiVincenzo at #16, although some people could consider it a reach.

I also have been thinking about trading down, but even if ATL owned #27, I wouldn't do 16+31 for 19+27. I'd have to be keeping #31.

Letting someone jump over two teams in the middle of the first round is much better than letting PHX leapfrog three at the bottom. And you could even argue #31 has some perks over #27 since it's no guaranteed money.

Thanks for the correction, the podcast I was listening to lied to me, haha.

the pie is a lie ahah

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:14 pm

UglyTruth wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:27 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 am

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:30 am

So if we draft Ayton, JJ/Booker and co just aren't gonna get any better and we'll stagnate as a team? Got it. I think I'm gonna stay outta the draft threads now, can't handle this incredible insight.

Yeah, not sure why these guys even watch the games. They already know what's going to happen. Must be a curse to have such deep insight and be all-knowing.

It’s called speculation and discussion. Isn’t that what sports forums are for?

If Ayton busts, I sure hope I don’t see you or OriginalOriginal posting crap like “Oh well hindsight is 20/20, nobody could’ve known that Ayton wouldn’t be nearly as good as Doncic, Bagley etc.”.

It’s my biggest pet peeve when people do that (not you but in general) and ignore the fact that not everyone was stupid and thought the same way at the time. People use it on the Knight trade saying “Oh I think everyone agreed Knight trade was good at the time and he improved every year in the league so everyone loved the trade at the time” like no we didn’t. There were smarter Suns fans who could see that Knight was a huge negative for the Bucks when he was on the court and Bucks fans despised him despite his gaudy stats and damn nearly threw a parade In Wisconsin when the trade was announced.

>It’s called speculation and discussion. Isn’t that what sports forums are for?

Yes. My apologies if I appeared anti-speculation or anti-discussion.

Also, if we draft Ayton and Doncic goes on to be all-world, anybody is free to say "I told you so."

And if Ayton lives to these expectations that his fans have for him, others who don’t like him will hopefully own it then and take that into next consideration next time they give their opinion. I know I certainly will.

Nobody speculates, everyone seems to talk in definitives. Like they know exactly what a player will be, how the team will react, etc.

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:11 am

Nobody speculates, everyone seems to talk in definitives. Like they know exactly what a player will be, how the team will react, etc.

So do you expect people to put “In my opinion...” before every post?

TheOriginalOriginal wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:11 am

Nobody speculates, everyone seems to talk in definitives. Like they know exactly what a player will be, how the team will react, etc.

People like to use their 20/20 hindsight to reinforce the idea that they can judge basketball talent as well as the professionals do.

They will tell you "yes, I wanted to draft this guy" or "I wanted to trade for this guy before he was a star" but they don't mention the other dozen shitty draft choices they would have made or countless unrealistic or bad trades they wholeheartedly endorsed.

Have we worked out Chandler Hutchison?