Phx-Suns.Net

Nodack wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:37 pm

What if the virus started in the US?

Like the so-called Spanish flu? Obviously, we would still blame another country.

Yeah, I’ve heard two theories about how it started in China. Either from a wet market or from a lab.

Cap wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:44 pm

Nodack wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:37 pm

What if the virus started in the US?

Like the so-called Spanish flu? Obviously, we would still blame another country.

France?

https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... u-pandemic

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:57 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:44 pm

Nodack wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:37 pm

What if the virus started in the US?

Like the so-called Spanish flu? Obviously, we would still blame another country.

France?

https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... u-pandemic

There are various theories about the origin, and at least some evidence pointing to an American origin. At any rate, it certainly wasn’t Spain’s fault, but that didn’t keep them from being scapegoated.

There’s been a lot of talk about ending the shutdown when the case numbers drop. Unfortunately, the shutdown remains the only mechanism we have for lowering the growth rate. When the shutdown ends, we’ll be back in a similar situation to a few weeks before the shutdown began — small number of cases, large growth rate. And the number of cases will rise in a few weeks to where we need a second shutdown. But when people hear we need a second shutdown, a lot of them are going to conclude that the first shutdown didn’t work and doing it again is stupid, and they won’t cooperate. Things are going to get a hell of a lot worse.

If it was a Chinese weapon they are really dumb releasing it on their own public first unless it was an accidental release, which would still be dumb.

I have heard a million conspiracy theories. I haven’t seen any evidence this was developed in a Chinese lab.

The theory I heard was that the virus was naturally occurring in bats and they were just studying it in a lab. A worker got infected unknowingly and took it outside the lab to the wet market where it started spreading.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:42 pm

The theory I heard was that the virus was naturally occurring in bats and they were just studying it in a lab. A worker got infected unknowingly and took it outside the lab to the wet market where it started spreading.

And uh, who exactly is propounding this theory? Anyone who knows what they’re talking about?

ShelC wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:48 am

I think China is responsible for the virus, it's global spread and a possible cover up. I think the country should be held accountable for the global financial ramifications. You shouldn't be able to singlehandedly crash the global economy and not pay up in some way. And I'd say that of any country. If we're being forced to print money and tack on more debt, which can and will cause a recession, possible inflation and make things that much harder for future generations, China should foot at least part of the bill. For us, for Italy, for Spain, etc. Even shutting down the country earlier and minimizing the spread would've caused an economic shutdown, lost jobs, furloughs, and a stimulus package.

We know the admin did next to nothing early on and has been dragging its feet now in most instances and using the pandemic to politicize things and divide people. But only Americans can hold the admin accountable, which should happen in November (though my thoughts on the election have been made clear).

In terms of being "tough" or "soft", China is a major world/economic power so the pols want/need to tip-toe around the issue as to not to piss them off. And given the economic circumstances, we wouldn't be fighting from a position of strength or have much leverage. Trump's trade war was mostly nonsense that's still costing the country, so if China were to tighten the screws it'd be even worse.

I try not to get into these topics, but I think this is just wrong. Whatever coverup China did was purely internal, and this was part of the controversy, that information was shared with the WHO and with the United States before it was shared internally in Wuhan. While the national government was keeping the WHO apprised of the situation and the US was sending medical experts to help assess the virus, it was still internally telling the citizens that there was no evidence of human to human infection.

I really don't get this "pay up" approach. What actions must be taken for a country to not have to pay up after the fact? How about the North Korea approach, to shoot everyone who has the disease (may or may not be true, just providing an extreme-ish example) to prevent spread? And who gets to decide who must pay up? Not the WHO, according to Trump.

Plenty of articles from the Western media decried China closing down Wuhan and subsequently the whole Hubei province, and says that China violated human freedom and human rights... and later praised Italy for having the courage to do the same. And now this... China needs to pay up because it didn't do enough?

I hate to sound like a China apologist, and frankly I think the Chinese government has made many mistakes in the handling of this pandemic, although most of those mistakes were within the country. By mid-February, when there was no longer a coverup from China, the US still only had double digit cases and Trump was still assuring the nation and the world that this was fully under control and there was nothing to be worried about. It's very easy to just blame everything on China, but I think some rationality is in order here.

Nodack wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:37 pm

I don’t believe China fabricated the virus to take down the world. It happens in nature and we never know when it will occur. What if the virus started in the US? Would we be responsible for paying back the world? How many viruses had happened in the past and how many times did the world want payment from those countries for being the country where it started. It just seems like the blame game has gotten a little out of hand. Blame mother nature. You can blame people for not responding to the crisis but, I don’t see going after a country because a virus started in that country unless that country deliberately started it to use as a weapon. I don’t believe this is the case.

Thank you.

BigLewy wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:38 pm

Nodack wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:37 pm

I don’t believe China fabricated the virus to take down the world. It happens in nature and we never know when it will occur. What if the virus started in the US? Would we be responsible for paying back the world? How many viruses had happened in the past and how many times did the world want payment from those countries for being the country where it started. It just seems like the blame game has gotten a little out of hand. Blame mother nature. You can blame people for not responding to the crisis but, I don’t see going after a country because a virus started in that country unless that country deliberately started it to use as a weapon. I don’t believe this is the case.

I'm starting to read more about how it was potentially developed in a lab and due to their lax security or what have you, it accidentally got out. Is it possible that someone in the lab contracted it, brought it home unknowingly to their significant other, who then unknowingly had it and spread it further? I think so. Do I think China made it and released it as a biological weapon? I doubt it and certainly would hope not. If that is somehow ever proven, the entire world would cripple them.

But, I do think that China has engaged in a fairly significant coverup regarding their death tolls and even the time it was released in Wuhan.

I really don't get this China cover up theory. Is there any proof of this? Or is China evil just because?

I think that the numbers out of China are not entirely accurate, but from about January 20th to about the end of March, the numbers are as accurate as China statistics will ever be. There were probably deaths that were not properly counted because in the early days of the pandemic, Wuhan dealt with significant overruns of medical resources and people were being sent home, and those who died at home may not have been counted. But it's not like this is a disease with a fatality rate of 15% and China claimed that it was less harmful than the average flu. Plenty of alarm bells were sounded. Where do you think the idea of "flattening the curve" came from?

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Yeah, I’ve heard two theories about how it started in China. Either from a wet market or from a lab.

There is plenty of scientific evidence that the spread did not originate from the wet market. It is possible that the wet market was where the disease spread, but it was not the origin, and the original theory that this came from people eating bats has lost one reasonably subset of circumstantial evidence. This is not to conclude that the disease did not occur from someone eating bats, or the lab theory. But so far virus hunters have not found patient 0.

Cap wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:31 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:42 pm

The theory I heard was that the virus was naturally occurring in bats and they were just studying it in a lab. A worker got infected unknowingly and took it outside the lab to the wet market where it started spreading.

And uh, who exactly is propounding this theory? Anyone who knows what they’re talking about?

Some friend posted a link on Facebook..I’ll see if I can find it

Edit: Not the article I saw, but references the theory.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

pickle wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:26 pm

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Yeah, I’ve heard two theories about how it started in China. Either from a wet market or from a lab.

There is plenty of scientific evidence that the spread did not originate from the wet market. It is possible that the wet market was where the disease spread, but it was not the origin, and the original theory that this came from people eating bats has lost one reasonably subset of circumstantial evidence. This is not to conclude that the disease did not occur from someone eating bats, or the lab theory. But so far virus hunters have not found patient 0.

Sounds like you’re saying none of the above. So what’s its origin? I haven’t heard any other theories.

Most likely bats:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... mal-market

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... mmary.html

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus ... n-lab.html

With pangolins as a possible intermediary, the world’s most trafficked mammal which I’ve never heard of.

What I know is this...

1. The wet market was not the origin.
2. Nobody knows conclusively what was studied in the Wuhan virus lab. What I have seen are judgement based on circumstantial evidence that the RNA strands seen in this infection had a high likelihood of having been man made, but that is not a scientific conclusion based on evidence, more like educated guesses.
3. Plenty of people had offered up the possibility that this was an accidental leak from the Wuhan virus institute, but so far the Wuhan institute itself and the Chinese government have vehemently denied this (I wouldn't have expected otherwise), and nobody has been able to offer proof in either direction.

pickle wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:20 am

1. The wet market was not the origin.

That's bold considering no lay person really knows what's going on with this virus or where it came from. Maybe a Chinese scientist could make that claim if they had the guts and/or authority.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:33 pm

Most likely bats:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... mal-market

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... mmary.html

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus ... n-lab.html

With pangolins as a possible intermediary, the world’s most trafficked mammal which I’ve never heard of.

For whatever reason Chinese people think pangolins are nature's viagra.

I have to say, while I defend China often, I think in general recently rich Chinese business people are one of the most despicable class of people I can think of, maybe a close second to Trump supporters who swear to vote him even if he's a convicted murderer.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:38 am

pickle wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:20 am

1. The wet market was not the origin.

That's bold considering no lay person really knows what's going on with this virus or where it came from. Maybe a Chinese scientist could make that claim if they had the guts and/or authority.

It's not that bold. There were multiple documented cases of people infected with the virus as early as November of 2019, well before this thing blew up in the wet market in late December. None of those cases had any connection with the wet market whatsoever. If it was one person, that can be attributed to bad memory. When there are multiple cases (I don't remember how many exactly, IIRC it was in the 8-10 range), then it's fairly conclusive.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:44 pm

Cap wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:31 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:42 pm

The theory I heard was that the virus was naturally occurring in bats and they were just studying it in a lab. A worker got infected unknowingly and took it outside the lab to the wet market where it started spreading.

And uh, who exactly is propounding this theory? Anyone who knows what they’re talking about?

Some friend posted a link on Facebook..I’ll see if I can find it

Edit: Not the article I saw, but references the theory.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

Article basically says they’re looking into the possibility, as they would in the case of any outbreak, but the weight of evidence is against it.