Phx-Suns.Net

Bill Russell
Walt Bellamy
Nate Thurmond
Zelmo Beaty
Willis Reed

All Hall of Famers, all about 8 times a year since there was 8-10 teams.

I don't think Wilt would have had much problem with Danny Schayes or Jon Koncak or Joe Kleine.

After all, he held his own against Kareem when he was at the end of his career.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am

Wilt's lowest scoring average for a season with the Warriors was 36.9 PPG.

No disrespect to Wilt but wasn't he playing against a ton of non athletic 6ft7 white stiffs during his dominance? Not sure he'd put up nearly the same numbers in the more modern NBA including the 80s onwards.

I think you just described half the guys that guarded Jordan in the Finals for his career.

I'm not even talking about Danny Schayes, Jon Koncak or Joe Kleine. Though I believe those guys would have had much better stats during the Chamberlain days. When Chamberlain played, during the tail end of his career, there were only 14 teams in the league in 1969. They played 54 games. Every team was averaging over 110 PPG except for 2, the San Francisco Warriors at 109.1 and the Chicago Bulls at 104.7. I think guys like Bill Russell wouldn't average 24 rebounds per game in this league or in the 90s.

Yeah, there are some dominating numbers. But lets be real here. What I'm arguing applies to almost every sport. When I read about baseball players putting up ungodly numbers during the era when black players weren't allowed in the league, I throw those numbers out the window. A lot of these athletes weren't 100% dedicated to their sport. They had other part time and even full time jobs to support their families.

Edit: I just looked and the % of teams averaging over 110 PPG back then is pretty similar to today within about 10% to 15%. Wow. I didn't realize scoring is as high as it is!

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:09 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:00 am

Wilt's lowest scoring average for a season with the Warriors was 36.9 PPG.

No disrespect to Wilt but wasn't he playing against a ton of non athletic 6ft7 white stiffs during his dominance? Not sure he'd put up nearly the same numbers in the more modern NBA including the 80s onwards.

I think you just described half the guys that guarded Jordan in the Finals for his career.

My point is, do you really think that Wilt in the more modern NBA era would have had 36.9 PPG as his lowest scoring average season and would have just walked over everyone? Do you think he would have had a 100 point game in the modern NBA era?

Joel Embiid's BEST season, this year, has been 29.6 PPG. His career average is 24.8 with his lowest being 20.2.

Shaquille O'Neal's BEST PPG average was 29.7. His career average was 23.7 and his lowest was 9.2 with 8 seasons averaging 20 PPG or less.

If you stuck either of those guys in a time machine and had them play in the NBA in the 60s, their numbers would be ungodly. I don't think Darrall Imhoff would have had his way on defense against those two.

I think many older fans of any given sport let their nostalgia get in the way of reality. My dad argued with me forever about how some of the NFL greats of his day would still be as great today. He forgets that the majority of defensive lineman today are much larger and quicker than most of the running backs he watched growing up.

He would have had completely different experiences growing up in the 2000s vs the 1940s. He would have had different basketball mentors, and instead of inventing a new way to play, he would have been able to learn from previous greats. I think it would be silly to think he wouldn't have been able to find new ways to exploit his skills on today's game. Would he have had a year where he was able to get 50/25 for a season? Who knows. Would anyone in 1999 thought we would have a 6-3 guard average a triple double for 3 straight seasons?

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:23 pm

He would have had completely different experiences growing up in the 2000s vs the 1940s. He would have had different basketball mentors, and instead of inventing a new way to play, he would have been able to learn from previous greats. I think it would be silly to think he wouldn't have been able to find new ways to exploit his skills on today's game. Would he have had a year where he was able to get 50/25 for a season? Who knows. Would anyone in 1999 thought we would have a 6-3 guard average a triple double for 3 straight seasons?

He would have. Better training, better supplements, better sports medicine and technology at his disposal. I agree that the times are radically different. I just don't see how he would have put up 50/25 for a season in modern NBA times or scored 100 points in a game.

I know there's an argument that the league is more soft now so he'd probably dominate even more with the foul calls on defense. People forget that it’s not just defenses that are less physical. Offenses are also held to stricter standards. Go watch an early Boogie Cousins game and see how many offensive fouls he gets called for. Wilt would be hampered by the lack of physicality on offense as well as the 5-second back to basket rules and the 3 in the key rules.

People also forget that the elimination of the illegal defense rules is what lead to decline in post play. With modern zone-man hybrid schemes it becomes so much easier to pressure a big in the post without having to fully commit to a double team like in the past. Post ups have become obsolete because of how complex defensive schemes are now. You no longer play one on one. It’s five on five now.

It's a different league and a different level of athleticism on top of it.

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 pm

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

See my edited argument above about the physicality of the league then and now.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 pm

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

It's also a byproduct of the era and society. "Kids these days! They BARELY put in a 40 hour work week and spend half that time on social media from their phones! When I was their age, I was working 60 to 70 hour work weeks and taking care of 6 kids!".

I'm sure that Embiid and others wouldn't have been suffering as many injuries playing 54 games against 14 teams full of far less athletic white players. And since load maintenance wasn't a thing back then, he probably wouldn't have had to contend with adhering to such philosophies. That has everything to do with ownership and the league these days looking at these guys as huge investments.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:36 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 pm

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

It's also a byproduct of the era and society. "Kids these days! They BARELY put in a 40 hour work week and spend half that time on social media from their phones! When I was their age, I was working 60 to 70 hour work weeks and taking care of 6 kids!".

I'm sure that Embiid and others wouldn't have been suffering as many injuries playing 54 games against 14 teams full of far less athletic white players. And since load maintenance wasn't a thing back then, he probably wouldn't have had to contend with adhering to such philosophies. That has everything to do with ownership and the league these days looking at these guys as huge investments.

This is almost the exact opposite of how I would think of playing in Wilt's day (especially as a black man) vs today.

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:51 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:36 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 pm

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

It's also a byproduct of the era and society. "Kids these days! They BARELY put in a 40 hour work week and spend half that time on social media from their phones! When I was their age, I was working 60 to 70 hour work weeks and taking care of 6 kids!".

I'm sure that Embiid and others wouldn't have been suffering as many injuries playing 54 games against 14 teams full of far less athletic white players. And since load maintenance wasn't a thing back then, he probably wouldn't have had to contend with adhering to such philosophies. That has everything to do with ownership and the league these days looking at these guys as huge investments.

This is almost the exact opposite of how I would think of playing in Wilt's day (especially as a black man) vs today.

There was definitely the difficulty with being black during his generation, similar to Jackie Robinson, though definitely more for Jackie. I know Wilt was pretty prolific for his bedroom time off of the court so not all was terrible for him

To be fair, he was a once in a generation athlete. I'm not trying to say he wasn't. I just don't think the dominance athletes experienced in the past would be the same today. Not to say he wouldn't be the best player of the 90's or 2000's along with Jordan. It's just a different game with the rule changes regarding illegal defense, zone defense, 3 seconds in the paint, etc., that have changed post play dominance along with a higher number of offensive fouls he'd pick up. I'm sure he would adjust. I just don't think it would be to the tune of a 50/25 season. Maybe a 30 and 20 season or two. But I really think there's no way in hell he'd have a 50/25 SEASON in the modern era.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:53 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:51 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:36 pm

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 pm

How much of the season would Embiid have played in the 1960s? Half the games?

The games were more physical, teams were lucky to have a trainer to tape them, travel and diet were worse. And they didn't games off for "load maintenance".

Wilt played under those conditions and played and averaged 48.5 minutes a game one year - missing only 8 minutes one game because he was ejected for fighting.
I think we know what those guys would have thought of "load maintenance".

It's also a byproduct of the era and society. "Kids these days! They BARELY put in a 40 hour work week and spend half that time on social media from their phones! When I was their age, I was working 60 to 70 hour work weeks and taking care of 6 kids!".

I'm sure that Embiid and others wouldn't have been suffering as many injuries playing 54 games against 14 teams full of far less athletic white players. And since load maintenance wasn't a thing back then, he probably wouldn't have had to contend with adhering to such philosophies. That has everything to do with ownership and the league these days looking at these guys as huge investments.

This is almost the exact opposite of how I would think of playing in Wilt's day (especially as a black man) vs today.

There was definitely the difficulty with being black during his generation, similar to Jackie Robinson, though definitely more for Jackie. I know Wilt was pretty prolific for his bedroom time off of the court so not all was terrible for him

I only meant the racism as a part of it. I mean the conditions the players had to endure to play back then, and then to be a guy that is the #1 (and #2, and maybe #3) option on offense and defense, and to play every second of every game. I don't care how athletic players are today vs back then, it is just unreal he did that.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:00 pm

To be fair, he was a once in a generation athlete. I'm not trying to say he wasn't. I just don't think the dominance athletes experienced in the past would be the same today. Not to say he wouldn't be the best player of the 90's or 2000's along with Jordan. It's just a different game with the rule changes regarding illegal defense, zone defense, 3 seconds in the paint, etc., that have changed post play dominance along with a higher number of offensive fouls he'd pick up. I'm sure he would adjust. I just don't think it would be to the tune of a 50/25 season. Maybe a 30 and 20 season or two. But I really think there's no way in hell he'd have a 50/25 SEASON in the modern era. 2 championships during his entire career of dominating also says something about him probably being a bit of a selfish player enamored with his numbers more than winning.

So Kobe can score 81 in a game, but Wilt wouldn't be able to score 100?

And for that last part, it might say a lot more about how few other options were on his teams vs what teams he was playing against.

It's fun to speculate but there's really no way to know for sure. Maybe someday in the future when perfect simulations are a thing.

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:07 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:00 pm

To be fair, he was a once in a generation athlete. I'm not trying to say he wasn't. I just don't think the dominance athletes experienced in the past would be the same today. Not to say he wouldn't be the best player of the 90's or 2000's along with Jordan. It's just a different game with the rule changes regarding illegal defense, zone defense, 3 seconds in the paint, etc., that have changed post play dominance along with a higher number of offensive fouls he'd pick up. I'm sure he would adjust. I just don't think it would be to the tune of a 50/25 season. Maybe a 30 and 20 season or two. But I really think there's no way in hell he'd have a 50/25 SEASON in the modern era. 2 championships during his entire career of dominating also says something about him probably being a bit of a selfish player enamored with his numbers more than winning.

So Kobe can score 81 in a game, but Wilt wouldn't be able to score 100?

And for that last part, it might say a lot more about how few other options were on his teams vs what teams he was playing against.

I edited my post. I looked into the rosters of the teams he played for during his time. He never really had a great supporting cast until the Lakers during the end of his career.

I'll back off of my 100 point game argument but I do stand by the 50/25 for a season argument. Wouldn't come close in the modern era.

You be the judge to how this would translate against the modern NBA. It is pretty fun to speculate. My question regarding this video is an honest question, by the way. Not some sort of video to side with my argument. If I'm being honest, this was one the first times I've watched extended clips of Chamberlain. Some pretty impressive highlights.

What do you guys think about Luka and Cuban's complaints regarding the play in tournament?

I don't get their argument. What exactly is their complaint? That it adds more wear and tear?