Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:25 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:19 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:05 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:04 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm

I keep thinking about this too. If Ayton expressed frustration in how he was utilized in the postseason and isn’t going to accept that role again…then how exactly can the Suns commit a max deal to him not even knowing what role he’s going to play?

Wouldn't you want your max player to have a bigger offensive role?

Of course, which is why I’m not comfortable with him being a max guy yet. I want him to show he can actually do it.

Well he's never going to b able to show it, if he's playing under the limited role Monty is giving him.

I don’t believe that at all. Ayton constantly has opportunities to attack and doesn’t. How many times do we scream for Ayton to just dribble the ball towards the hoop? How many times did he stand there uncovered, with his dribble still available, looking for someone to pass the ball to?

That may happen a few times here and there. But there are many games where he gets almost no touches in the entire second half.

This Ayton stuff is going to tear us apart, haha. Here’s to Ayton playing like a mad man to start the season and getting everyone on board for a max deal!

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:55 pm

So we will give you more than the other teams can offer you next year, but not the 207M. We will give you the 4 year at 135, which again is more than anyone can offer you next summer. What do you say?"

Ridiculous... we just gave that to Shamet and Mikal.. Ayton is worth more than those 2 combined every day of the week.. its about next best... there are very few centers (arguably any) worth more than Ayton at this point ... Mikal great and I love him but wing players and back up guards can be had on the cheap.

BlaCkAdDa wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:31 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:55 pm

So we will give you more than the other teams can offer you next year, but not the 207M. We will give you the 4 year at 135, which again is more than anyone can offer you next summer. What do you say?"

Ridiculous... we just gave that to Shamet and Mikal.. Ayton is worth more than those 2 combined every day of the week.. its about next best... there are very few centers (arguably any) worth more than Ayton at this point ... Mikal great and I love him but wing players and back up guards can be had on the cheap.

Ayton for the 20 games in the playoffs, sure. Ayton that we have seen for 180 games, not really.

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:21 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:11 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:03 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:01 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:06 pm

He's already shown way more offensive skill than those players. Why punish him for making him sacrifice his scoring/touches for Monty's system?

Also, show me Tyson Chandler's 24-point quarter.

THIS. People don't seem to understand the amount of sacrifice Ayton makes. It's no wonder he has lapses. He goes long stretches without a touch. He's the 4th option on most plays. He's shown he can dominate if he's one of the regular 2 or 3 options on offense but Monty's system asks him to sacrifice. "See, he's putting up middle of the road points her game. He's replaceable. He's Richaun Holmes". GTFO with that nonsense.

When has he ever shown he can dominate offensively? I’ve literally never seen that from him outside of stand alone plays here and there.

WTF dude. Are you kidding me? Are you just dense for the sake of standing firm on your take? He dropped 24 points in the 2nd quarter against the Nuggets.



He had 24 including the game winner in the postseason last year.



I'm not going to go out and find highlights of every game he had a great offensive performance. It's no longer worth debating with you about it. You see Ayton one way, as an easily replaceable piece. I get it. Let's both stop going back and forth with each other about it. Waste of my time. Easy to replace 7ft player. GTFO with that nonsense.

I sat courtside at that 24 point 2nd Q performance. I’m well aware it happened. There is 1 play in that whole video that isn’t just a put back or a catch and finish. Everything he did in that video is still perfectly available to him in our current offense.

It's interesting that we can track his best offensive quarter, because the rest of his so called peers, are so busy taking over ENTIRE games -in plural- that a spare good/great quarter, is negligible.

And please stop all that "1st pick ever" non-sense. The guy got a very handsome contract out of it, he ALREADY cashed in the perks of being the No 1 pick on a NBA Draft. As a matter of fact, he had played really short of a No1 pick for three years, playoffs included. And it wasn't because the team or the coach are holding him back, he lacks aggression, lacks conditioning and lacks the skills to take over a game, not mention a championship.

So, the team and the fans could be really entitled to "feel disrespected" for what our first ever No1 pick has delivered so far.

You see Ayton's lack of an extension as a backbreaker for the franchise, "disaster". I get it. Many of us don't, is a great piece to have, but not at a $207mill pricetag. Not trying to waste your time, but if your are going to flood every single thread with "the sky is falling" hiperboles about Ayton, then you should be able to stand your ground and keep debating about it on a civil manner.

Everyone wants to hate Robert Sarver, I get it. It's fun to hate the rich guy who has a long history of behaving like an asshole. That's the easy angle to take when the happenings inside the building, at the negotiating table, are unknown. (Or you're a sportswriter.)

In this situation, there are a few things I'm looking at first before pointing the foam finger at Robert Sarver.

James Jones, reigning NBA EOTY, has a job that requires him to balance the roster on the court, in the locker room, and on the cap sheet. I think every dialed in Suns fan can appreciate the work he's done these past few years and he's been vitally important to turning around this franchise. I don't need to go through a list of the contracts he's negotiated here, but lets just say there hasn't really been a bad one yet.

Also, some people might not easily recall this, but James Jones learned this craft in part under the wing of Pat Riley. Pat Riley of "The Disease of More" fame, and more importantly, the owner of ten NBA championship rings. It's a safe assumption that James Jones retained a few lessons from Pat Riley about player valuation, and I'm OK with him leaning on that knowledge.

Deandre Ayton is the other person I would point to before Robert Sarver in this situation. Ayton was excellent for most of the playoffs until the Finals. Giannis was and is clearly significantly better than Ayton, but Ayton isn't (reportedly) asking for Giannis level 2nd contract money. HE'S (reportedly) ASKING FOR MORE. (source: https://www.sbnation.com/2016/9/19/1265 ... 00-million)

This is where I start to feel awkward that I'm most likely siding with Robert Sarver on this matter. Ayton is asking for a salary that vastly exceeds the value of his statistical output by comparison to his peers. He has always been vocal about his goal of getting a second NBA contract and I don't have an issue with that sort of proclamation. I have a problem with him trying to cut corners to get there and it resulting in a 25 game suspension that likely cost the Suns a playoff berth in the 2019-20 season. I also have a problem with him being reluctant to play a role that most benefits team success. And keep in mind I'm not talking about playing a role to better fit Eric Bledsoe or Dragan Bender. I'm talking about guys like Chris Paul and Devin Booker, who have proven their commitment to team success through hard work.

So putting these observations together has led me back to a suspicion that I've had about him for at least the past year, does Deandre Ayton really enjoy playing NBA basketball? Is he really in this to reach the pinnacle of success in this sport, or is he in it to capitalize on his genetic lottery talents and get rich before anything else? I don't know the answer to this yet, and maybe James Jones doesn't know either, or maybe he thinks it's the latter. Pat Riley: The Disease of More.

I'll end with this point that I haven't seen many around here bring up in the past couple of weeks. The NBA isn't a Center's game anymore. Well, it is if the guy playing Center can sprint dribble the full length of the court and euro-step into a dunk from the three-point line, but that guy is called The Greek Freak for a reason. The modern NBA game is about being a threat to do anything with the ball; dribble, pass, or shoot. The players who can do that at the highest level are the real max contract players. To this point in his career, Ayton hasn't shown the ability to self-create (dribble) or play make (pass). He can shoot, I'll give him that, but not without also acknowledging that his tendency is to take less efficient shots that don't benefit team success. Offering that kind of player a max contract will not lead to an NBA title and I think most NBA executives would agree.

As some others have already said, I can't fully form an opinion on this until we have some honest reporting on the negotiation. All we kind of know is that Ayton wanted the full max, and the Suns weren't willing to go that far. We don't know any underlying details for certain. I could possibly be swayed back to Ayton's side of this if we find out more about the numbers already being reported. As it stands now, if the choice is between signing Ayton to a max contract extension right now or waiting until a year from now to negotiate again, I think the Suns have made the right choice.

Nice balanced, thoughtful take, Most Flagrant of the Fowl. It doesn't have to be one side or the other. They may need to meet in between but it doesn't appear that's how both sides are approaching it. We can't just give in to everybody's demands otherwise Sarver won't be able to afford to run the franchise, like it or not. Unfortunately, he doesn't have unlimited pocketbooks. He's not Oprah. YOU get the max! YOU get the max! And YOU get the max!

Ayton has been a great player for us at times but he has been admittedly uneven. He's not in the same class as Luka and Trae. He just isn't. You can't just pay him the max because that's what he wants. You have to do what's best for the team. All the other deals have been fair and all have been well compensated. None of them could be considered cheap.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:32 pm

We can't just give in to everybody's demands otherwise Sarver won't be able to afford to run the franchise, like it or not. Unfortunately, he doesn't have unlimited pocketbooks. He's not Oprah. YOU get the max! YOU get the max! And YOU get the max!

I think it's even less about this and more to do with managing the roster under the CBA. The Suns are one of the deepest teams in the league. Compare them to the "super teams" whose roster is mostly filled with players making far less than the league average. The Lakers have 11 active players making $5 million or less, and only one of them is making exactly $5 million.

I'm not going to defend Robert Sarver. I hate him. I always will.

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does to.

DA's first interview when he was drafted, when asked what his goal was, he said, "to get a second contract." Well, here it is so I guess I don't really buy into DA having all these reasons to be "mad." He set the bar pretty low for himself out of the gate.

So now that his agent and all these "analysts" who've never followed the Suns up until about last June, want to tell us how good he is and what is potential is? Please. Spare me the bullshit.

I think the deal gets done sometime down the road. If it doesn't then I trust JJ to find a way to use it to improve the team via sign and trade. I'd like to keep Ayton long term as long as he shows improvements in areas he needs to show improvements in.

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:59 pm

So now that his agent and all these "analysts" who've never followed the Suns up until about last June, want to tell us how good he is and what is potential is? Please. Spare me the bullshit.

THIS, throw in as well some amnesic fans lacking beyond short term memory.

Perfectly nailed.

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:59 pm

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does too.

I'm with you and FF. Max contracts are a bargain if the player clearly deserves it. However, they can kill a franchise if they are spent on borderline players who are being paid not on production but rather market value.

I'm an Ayton believer. And I think that this season will bring out a beast in him and that he will prove worthy in the end. But he needed that reality check.

If he fails...well...at least we didn't pay him a ridonculous contract.

Nice take FF.

McGee averaged 28 and 11 per 36 in preseason, if you’re looking for a guide to *capable tall players in the Phoenix suns system*, and he’s getting paid $5m.

Guys the thing with Ayton is this: I simply can't trust him. Not just as a basketball player but as human being as well. There were all red flags since day one when he anounced that his goal was to get that second contract. He sees himself in the giant mirror and has no clue whatsoever about his role in the court. Which also means that he possesses a distorted image about himself. I say you can't trust and work long term with such an individual.

The Suns FO feels the same I guess.

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:59 pm

I'm not going to defend Robert Sarver. I hate him. I always will.

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does to.

DA's first interview when he was drafted, when asked what his goal was, he said, "to get a second contract." Well, here it is so I guess I don't really buy into DA having all these reasons to be "mad." He set the bar pretty low for himself out of the gate.

So now that his agent and all these "analysts" who've never followed the Suns up until about last June, want to tell us how good he is and what is potential is? Please. Spare me the bullshit.

I think the deal gets done sometime down the road. If it doesn't then I trust JJ to find a way to use it to improve the team via sign and trade. I'd like to keep Ayton long term as long as he shows improvements in areas he needs to show improvements in.

Good points as well. Let's see if he can play mad and with some aggression. I really do think the lack of aggression is what's holding him back from that max contract. If he had Amare's fierceness, there's no question in my mind that he would be worth the max and would have gotten it. Heck, if he could be half as aggressive as Giannis the max would have been a no brainer.

I don't think you have be on one side or the other. It goes both ways. He's a great player but not in the same realm as a Shaq, Doncic, or even Trae. I think most see that. I don't think you just pay him the max to keep him happy. I mean it's easy for us to say since it's not our money. The Suns showed no hesitancy in maxing Book. There's a reason for that. There's also a reason they didn't throw the full bag at Ayton so quickly.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:19 pm

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:59 pm

I'm not going to defend Robert Sarver. I hate him. I always will.

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does to.

DA's first interview when he was drafted, when asked what his goal was, he said, "to get a second contract." Well, here it is so I guess I don't really buy into DA having all these reasons to be "mad." He set the bar pretty low for himself out of the gate.

So now that his agent and all these "analysts" who've never followed the Suns up until about last June, want to tell us how good he is and what is potential is? Please. Spare me the bullshit.

I think the deal gets done sometime down the road. If it doesn't then I trust JJ to find a way to use it to improve the team via sign and trade. I'd like to keep Ayton long term as long as he shows improvements in areas he needs to show improvements in.

Good points as well. Let's see if he can play mad and with some aggression. I really do think the lack of aggression is what's holding him back from that max contract. If he had Amare's fierceness, there's no question in my mind that he would be worth the max and would have gotten it. Heck, if he could be half as aggressive as Giannis the max would have been a no brainer.

I don't think you have be on one side or the other. It goes both ways. He's a great player but not in the same realm as a Shaq, Doncic, or even Trae. I think most see that. I don't think you just pay him the max to keep him happy. I mean it's easy for us to say since it's not our money. The Suns showed no hesitancy in maxing Book. There's a reason for that. There's also a reason they didn't throw the full bag at Ayton so quickly.

I hope the lack of an extension lights a fire under him, he dominates the entire season, and then becomes a no questions asked max player. Then we offer him the max he wanted, he gets his second contract, and the core is locked up for years to come. I can understand why he wants a max now, who wouldn't? But I'm not sure if I would give it to him right now based on one great playoff run.

virtual9mm wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:14 pm

djy2j wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:59 pm

I will defend James Jones. I think he knows what he's doing...I think. Ayton has never played mad. I would like to think they are motivating him to really "become" that max player and seeing if he can play mad.

I remember all the games that he sleep walked through games just as I remember the playoff games where he was a defensive stalwart. I think the front office does too.

I'm with you and FF. Max contracts are a bargain if the player clearly deserves it. However, they can kill a franchise if they are spent on borderline players who are being paid not on production but rather market value.

I'm an Ayton believer. And I think that this season will bring out a beast in him and that he will prove worthy in the end. But he needed that reality check.

If he fails...well...at least we didn't pay him a ridonculous contract.

And do we want to pay a guy that mails it in all season once he's paid, constantly being prodded to play hard and aggressive? I think I've let my initial frustration boil over and thought about things a little more (a good dinner and a nice walk with your toddler can do wonders). If this is what it takes to get a consistent and aggressive Ayton, maybe it's for the best.

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:16 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:12 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:04 pm

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:01 pm

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

WE STILL HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER WHETHER AYTON STAYS ON THE TEAM

But he's CLEARLY unhappy. I guess you want a disinterested, unhappy young player in the locker room that's going to be asked about it all season long as a distraction. Because that doesn't mean shit. WE HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER HIM!

Right. Every change he gets he talks about how he can do more, but we don't let him. He was unhappy in his role in the playoffs, but that is exactly what we need him to be...

Why? So we can come up short again instead of utilizing our extremely gifted 7-footer?

Indy wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:14 pm

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:01 pm

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

Everyone took less money to play here, including Book. Why shouldn't Ayton?

Actually, Booker had escalators up to the full supermax for MVP, DPOY, and 1st team All-NBA.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:01 pm

The simplest way to look at this is, we had a team that got to the Finals and was 2 games away from a title. We could have locked that team up and kept them together for the next 3-4 years to make runs at titles together, and ALL WE HAD TO DO was simply re-sign our existing talent to fair market value. But instead, we have chosen to fuck around and lowball a key player in the interest of saving Robert Sarver some money.

I can't believe we are willing to shoot ourselves in the foot like this. It'd be one thing if we were a young team that hadn't won anything; we'd be asking ourselves whether Ayton could perform at a higher level, whether this core is capable of contending. But WE JUST SAW IT. Exactly how many dollars you think Ayton deserves pales in comparison to the indisputable fact that we just saw that this team is capable of getting all the way to the finish line for a title. Why wouldn't you keep that together? Why risk fouling it all up by doing something like this?

I am not surprised that Robert is willing to shoot himself in the foot. But I will say I am surprised James Jones is.