Phx-Suns.Net

Three-PG set is a misnomer, really, because IT is more of a diminutive off guard. He has a shoot-first mindset, doesn't see the floor particularly well, and is not particularly court savvy.

Goran is more Paul Westphal than Jason Kidd. But he does make good passes. Bledsoe reminds me of a smaller Marbury, save for better defense (when he wants to).

We've been spoiled by the likes of KJ, Kidd and Nash and have high expectations out of our point guards. (And that's not factoring in Goodrich, Scott, DJ and Buse.)

LL - I've heard some people try to compare Bledsoe & Dragic to KJ & Hornacek and it just doesn't work for me - KJ had much better passing skills than Bledsoe and his mid-range shot was much better, and Hornacek was not as athletic as Goran, but he was more of a pure shooter. The comparison of Goran to Hornacek works in one way - they were both point guards who ended up at shooting guard because they got teamed up with another point guard, only with KJ it made sense because he was capable of creating offense for everyone (including Mark West!) but Bledsoe certainly hasn't shown a lot of that yet.

Agreed.

KJ also benefitted from the two-man game he developed with Chambers. Don't see any evidence of any sort of that developing with any of the bigs, aside from the occasional feed to Bledsoe. But Bledsoe often mishandles the pass or is not looking for it.

(Edit: I meant Plumlee mishandling the ball/passes ...)

I think the Bledsoe-Dragic combo has some magic. Factoring in IT takes away that magic, sort of like a guy who hits into double plays kills a hit and run team ...

LazarusLong wrote:Agreed.

KJ also benefitted from the two-man game he developed with Chambers. Don't see any evidence of any sort of that developing with any of the bigs, aside from the occasional feed to Bledsoe. But Bledsoe often mishandles the pass or is not looking for it.

I think the Bledsoe-Dragic combo has some magic. Factoring in IT takes away that magic, sort of like a guy who hits into double plays kills a hit and run team ...

I think it works better when the offense runs through Dragic more than it does now, and for a team with "three point guards" they sure struggle to make some basic passes and they (Bledsoe and Thomas) aren't particularly good at creating offense for their teammates.

Cap wrote:Oh, the fun is another disappointing thing. The 3 PG idea was fun in theory, promising 48 minutes of balls-to-the-wall action, but it hasn't worked out that way. The offense is stagnant. The only exciting thing about this team is the young potential of Alex Len. Nothing else about the team is right.

This is what kills me about the team. The 3 PG lineup was constructed to push the tempo and/or drive and dish to 3-pt shooters. Instead, we're seeing ballhoggediness to the extreme, so that every second shot is a contested 3-pt shot especially by Thomas. And one bad apple spoils the entire batch.

I'm fine with Green and Markieff being our designated chuckers, because Green is like Rex the Wonder Dog in his ability to hit shots that would be impossible for anyone else, and because that contested 18-foot fadeaway is like a layup for him.

I know how you feel about IT being "a good kind of ballhog" but I'm so done with him. I'm also done with Tucker constantly playing out of his game. Instead of being a 3-and-D guy, he's trying an awful lot of one-on-one postups and drives. That's just not his role.

I'm at the point that the Suns should trade these two for draft picks and cap space. IT's has turned out to be more Nate Robinson than anyone else, but should still have considerable value at 7 million a year. Tucker has great value as a 3-and-D player, but I am not confident that Hornacek can rein him in, not after seeing his body language and his inane comments. GET THEM OFF THE TEAM and I think that we're going to see addition by subtraction.

I want the Suns to go back to running as hard as they can and passing for the open shot. No more IT ignoring an open teammate on a fastbreak, instead of Dragic penetrating and hitting the open man for a 3 on the secondary fastbreak. No more Tucker thinking that he's Charles Barkley. Get these two out of there, get some more time for the kids -- and YANK BALLHOGS AND SIT THEIR ASSES DOWN ON THE BENCH. Boneheadedness gets your ass on the bench as well. Maybe that will change the culture quite a bit, I know that we're used to the likes of KJ and Nash (Ason didn't count) but Dragic did a credible impersonation while Bledsoe was out.

I thin that Bledsoe can be salvaged if he, Dragic and IT didn't constantly have to worry about splitting limited possessions. Thank God for Len.

The Bobster wrote:

LazarusLong wrote:Agreed.

KJ also benefitted from the two-man game he developed with Chambers. Don't see any evidence of any sort of that developing with any of the bigs, aside from the occasional feed to Bledsoe. But Bledsoe often mishandles the pass or is not looking for it.

I think the Bledsoe-Dragic combo has some magic. Factoring in IT takes away that magic, sort of like a guy who hits into double plays kills a hit and run team ...

I think it works better when the offense runs through Dragic more than it does now, and for a team with "three point guards" they sure struggle to make some basic passes and they (Bledsoe and Thomas) aren't particularly good at creating offense for their teammates.

Dragic should be the primary ballhandler, period. Let Bledsoe play starting SG and backup PG.

That IT turnover was the most frustrating play of the season for me. He's one of the more frustrating Suns I can remember.

Aaron Brooks - basic passing skills + $6M of salary = IT3.

virtual9mm wrote:

Cap wrote:Oh, the fun is another disappointing thing. The 3 PG idea was fun in theory, promising 48 minutes of balls-to-the-wall action, but it hasn't worked out that way. The offense is stagnant. The only exciting thing about this team is the young potential of Alex Len. Nothing else about the team is right.

This is what kills me about the team. The 3 PG lineup was constructed to push the tempo and/or drive and dish to 3-pt shooters. Instead, we're seeing ballhoggediness to the extreme, so that every second shot is a contested 3-pt shot especially by Thomas. And one bad apple spoils the entire batch.

I'm fine with Green and Markieff being our designated chuckers, because Green is like Rex the Wonder Dog in his ability to hit shots that would be impossible for anyone else, and because that contested 18-foot fadeaway is like a layup for him.

I know how you feel about IT being "a good kind of ballhog" but I'm so done with him. I'm also done with Tucker constantly playing out of his game. Instead of being a 3-and-D guy, he's trying an awful lot of one-on-one postups and drives. That's just not his role.

I'm at the point that the Suns should trade these two for draft picks and cap space. IT's has turned out to be more Nate Robinson than anyone else, but should still have considerable value at 7 million a year. Tucker has great value as a 3-and-D player, but I am not confident that Hornacek can rein him in, not after seeing his body language and his inane comments. GET THEM OFF THE TEAM and I think that we're going to see addition by subtraction.

I want the Suns to go back to running as hard as they can and passing for the open shot. No more IT ignoring an open teammate on a fastbreak, instead of Dragic penetrating and hitting the open man for a 3 on the secondary fastbreak. No more Tucker thinking that he's Charles Barkley. Get these two out of there, get some more time for the kids -- and YANK BALLHOGS AND SIT THEIR ASSES DOWN ON THE BENCH. Boneheadedness gets your ass on the bench as well. Maybe that will change the culture quite a bit, I know that we're used to the likes of KJ and Nash (Ason didn't count) but Dragic did a credible impersonation while Bledsoe was out.

I thin that Bledsoe can be salvaged if he, Dragic and IT didn't constantly have to worry about splitting limited possessions. Thank God for Len.

I agree on every single take of your post, just would add that we are aproaching to a No Return point where our roster can mature into Golden State or regress into the always promising but dissapointing T-Wolves. This is when the coach must step up and put some "stars" and "veterans" on the bench until they do their part.

Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

That laugh by Coach after IT turned it over was pretty interesting.

I should have suspected that the f-wad Babby has his grubby fingerprints on the mess.
He's a blathering tool.
I would rather shove hot knitting needles in my ears rather than listen to his verbal pap.

Gladiator wrote:

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:Thomas for a rented Monroe

I'd do that but I doubt the Pistons would with how well they've been playing, and Monroe's been playing, since they got rid of Josh Smith

It makes sense for both teams (including an PR-emotional-history for Detroit), unless the Pistons are delusional about keeping Monroe, this guy knows that he will be always under Drummond, he will leave in the summer. To me,the real problem is Monroe acepting this trade, because we are out of cap space, and leaving Detroit cancels his chances for a sign and trade in the summer. We could send then, Thomas +Tucker for a mini maxed Monroe.

Now, how about a Thomas +Plumlee for Steve Nash + Ed Davis?

The inmates are running the asylum.

I wouldn't trade for a David West strictly for his on court production, but also for his leadership and no nosense approach.

Professionalism is such an underrated quality. Our veteran leader is PJ Tucker and for all his hustle and contributions, he is hardly a good example of how to behave on a basketball court, from playing out of his game to complaining to refs etc.

This is not an overreaction to a loss, no matter how stupid it was. Just like the need for a backup big man until the trade, lack of discipline and bball IQ is a real issue with this roster that has been ongoing all season long, and it has an impact on wins and loses.

That and the me first, team second attitude/game of some players severely takes away from the amount of talent on this team.

I don't really care if such mindset is hardwired inside of their brain or is a byproduct of having redundant pieces, diffuse roles, displicent coaching, etc. It is a handicap that you are not overcoming most nights against good teams, let alone the elites in the west.

I believe a statement is needed and it needs to come in form of a trade. A minimum of two roge elements need to be shipped away in exchange for some steadiness and know how.

Enough with the chucking, the ballhogging, the avoidable TOs and the stupid techs.

EDC wrote:

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

That laugh by Coach after IT turned it over was pretty interesting.

where's the video of that?

EDC wrote:

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

That laugh by Coach after IT turned it over was pretty interesting.

video pls of laughing coach horny after IT screwup..

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

i disagree. he really believes that that is the best lineup in the latter stages of the 4th. and i dont blame him, 3 pgs means 3 excellent ballhandlers and FT shooters +speed + good decision making, right?

the 3 pg at the 4th isnt the problem. playing tucker regularly as a PF in the fourth is. you cant use him in a pick and pop situation. does anybody remember if frye played in the last 4 minutes of the 4th last season? he did, right? and plumlee sat on the bench.

i dont believe the dumb FO has any say on how horny conducts his on court decisions. if they had any sway, horny would have tanked the last year's team. dont fool yourselves, losing frye was a bigger deal than you all thought. even without IT, the suns 4th qtr 5 would instead be bledsoe, dragic, green, tucker and keef.

IT takes the blame, sort of, for his costly turnover

"We kept fighting and got back in the game and it was our game," said Thomas, who had seven turnovers. "it's tough when you fight so long and you lose a lot of energy when the game keeps going on.

"On my turnover, I definitely should've called time out. You live and learn and you can't make the same mistake twice."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /21611213/

let me repeat, the 3 pg playing in the 4th is not the real problem here, it is tucker playing PF. and that has horny's fingerprints all over it.

that's why i knew the wright trade wont make any difference. it just made the disfunction more obvious to the oblivious here.

if frye stayed, a 4th qtr lineup of IT, dragic, bled, frye, keef can work, but i'd rather have pj in there as a defensive stopper over IT.

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

I don't think there's any chance of this. Every time I hear McDonough or Babby address coach Hornacek they say he has complete control over how to use the roster. I have no cause to doubt that.

I also don't think you need to showcase IT for a trade. People know what he is at this point. He's a 20ppg capable scorer that can't defend because of his size, makes sometimes shaky decisions, but can win you games with hot shooting. Every team needs one of those guys. The Suns just happen to have 2. When Green is gone next year we'll probably be happy to have IT still.

carey wrote:

virtual9mm wrote:Aztec -- something that I read on another board that I agree wholeheartedly with is that Hornacek is not making his own decisions here. The low IQ ballhoggedy players that we see on the team are not the type of players that he wants. And I don't think that he's running the 3 PG lineup at the end of games because he wants to. I think that there are orders from above -- and I suspect that we're at a breaking point where either the front office caves in and Hornacek actually gets to coach -- or the relationship between Hornacek and Babby/McD will start going sour.

I think that they're trying to showcase IT for a trade and prevent him from pouting. Better make that trade soon, though.

I don't think there's any chance of this. Every time I hear McDonough or Babby address coach Hornacek they say he has complete control over how to use the roster. I have no cause to doubt that.

I also don't think you need to showcase IT for a trade. People know what he is at this point. He's a 20ppg capable scorer that can't defend because of his size, makes sometimes shaky decisions, but can win you games with hot shooting. Every team needs one of those guys. The Suns just happen to have 2. When Green is gone next year we'll probably be happy to have IT still.

Green is much more versatile than IT. I still vote for keeping Green some how.