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Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:42 am

"can’t win a championship without a great big"

- except for 4 of the last 9 titles
- except I actually mean "good"
- except PFs count as bigs, except when they don't

It's just poppycock. Some title teams have great big men, and some don't. I don't think the data supports your argument.

"Big" has always included PFs--it's not some definition I'm just making up (link, link). I'm not including PFs who are wings or SFs playing PF.

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Lol. You're joking right? Booker had the ball (and the entire franchise) placed in his hands. And there is a difference with developing big men.

JeremyG,

Who is responsible for Ayton's lack of development in the following areas:

Dribbling?
General ball handling?
Positioning?
Footwork?

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:56 am

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:36 am

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:59 am

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:10 am

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

Ayton wasn’t great in the post and definitely not enough to transcend falling backwards 20 years. He never developed any counters to his only post shot either and it got took away the year he became proficient with it- because again, no counter move. Stop blaming everyone else.

ShadowHawke wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm

JeremyG,

Who is responsible for Ayton's lack of development in the following areas:

Dribbling?
General ball handling?
Positioning?
Footwork?

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Lol. You're joking right? Booker had the ball (and the entire franchise) placed in his hands. And there is a difference with developing big men.

Nope, not joking. You find literally any excuse outside of Aytons poor play and work ethic to blame for his stagnation. Booker has improved in one area or another every season, Ayton did not. It's simple really.

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:12 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Lol. You're joking right? Booker had the ball (and the entire franchise) placed in his hands. And there is a difference with developing big men.

Nope, not joking. You find literally any excuse outside of Aytons poor play and work ethic to blame for his stagnation. Booker has improved in one area or another every season, Ayton did not. It's simple really.

For most

Hollinger's analysis:

Is Deandre Ayton better than Jusuf Nurkić?​
For the specific timeline of the Suns, perhaps not. You have to separate whatever Ayton might do in Portland from what he was giving the Suns. Ayton is very talented, but also was frustrating. He had a very underwhelming 2022-23 season and seemed unhappy in Phoenix. Ironically, both Ayton and Nurkić were inconsistent enough that it had fans wondering if their backups were better. Well, Nurkic’s backup in Phoenix is now, once again, Drew Eubanks.

My numbers project Nurkić better than Ayton this season, but it’s not because of some sky-high belief in Nurk. The bigger factor is Ayton’s major performance drop-off last season when he seemed notably half-hearted, even in playoff games. Nurkić is a better passer off short rolls, though, which could be more helpful given how Phoenix will likely play this season.

I have a feeling the change of scenery will help Ayton quite a bit because he’ll see the ball so much more. I’ve always felt he could be a volume scorer with his face-up game in the right situation. We’ll see if I’m right, because Portland will need him to get buckets on its gutted roster. One more thing: Ayton is four years younger. Even if you think Nurkić-Ayton is a wash this season, it likely won’t be by 2025-26 when both players are still under contract.

However, the bigger win for Phoenix was the mere act of splitting Ayton’s deal into three smaller contracts with Nurkić, Allen and Little. Because other teams were reluctant to take on Ayton’s deal, and Phoenix’s other contracts are all minimum or near-minimum deals, the Suns had near-zero flexibility for in-season trades prior to this move.

Between this trade and a couple of creative shenanigans with future pick swaps that yielded extra second-round picks, the Suns can now work on the trade market if needed, using three middle-class contracts that could potentially be part of a salary match. Additionally, Phoenix’s depth situation was iffy enough that grabbing a fringe starter in Allen is kind of a big deal, especially for them to get through the regular season with a decent seed.

Keep an eye on Little, too. It was somewhat surprising to see the oft-injured 23-year-old thrown in while he’s on the first season of a four-year, $30 million extension. Portland didn’t need to include his salary to complete the deal, although it would have kept them in the tax pending a Holiday move, and possibly complicated matters for next summer.

Now, Phoenix has 17 players and must cut two of them. I’m guessing the recently arrived Johnson and the non-guaranteed Ish Wainwright are the two, but if I were Jordan Goodwin or Bol Bol, I’d make sure I have a good training camp and stay late after practice every day. A follow-up trade to drop one of their surplus seconds on another team to take Johnson’s $2.8 million salary would save the Suns several million dollars in tax payments, so keep an eye on that.

Phoenix also earned a $1.1 million trade exception by including Camara, a promising late second-rounder who unfortunately needed to be in the deal for the salary match to work. Don’t spend it all in one place, fellas. Camara is a developmental 4, but goes to a great situation for him in Portland. He might play right away.

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:12 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Lol. You're joking right? Booker had the ball (and the entire franchise) placed in his hands. And there is a difference with developing big men.

Nope, not joking. You find literally any excuse outside of Aytons poor play and work ethic to blame for his stagnation. Booker has improved in one area or another every season, Ayton did not. It's simple really.

And Booker is great when he averaged 25 points on a 21-win team, but if Ayton does that in Portland, you will find an excuse to say it means nothing.

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:20 pm

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:12 pm

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Lol. You're joking right? Booker had the ball (and the entire franchise) placed in his hands. And there is a difference with developing big men.

Nope, not joking. You find literally any excuse outside of Aytons poor play and work ethic to blame for his stagnation. Booker has improved in one area or another every season, Ayton did not. It's simple really.

And Booker is great when he averaged 25 points on a 21-win team, but if Ayton does that in Portland, you will find an excuse to say it means nothing.

I won't say anything because I rarely speak on players that aren't on the team I root for. Honestly couldn't care less if he ever suits up again for anyone.

TOO wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:06 pm

Who developed Booker? Players improve with work and want, Ayton didn't seem to do much of either the first few years, while Booker did, it can't all be laid at the feet of the Suns man.

Book grew up on the game. His dad was a former high level college player, played in the NBA for a moment and played professionally for years in Europe. He had that built in role model and mentor to help him. He also moved to Moss Point from MI in HS and made it his life to get better, while his father pushed him like a pro needs to be pushed, and probably worked 3-4x harder than his teammates because of that. It wasn't just a casual thing for him, Book embraced the basketball culture of getting better and better all the time, along with the grind to continuely do that.

Man I'm trying not to get into these debates

DA passing like everything else (had moments) when he was hitting cutters or making the swing pass to the corner 3.
There were also times when he already had his mind made up he was going to pass and would miss a scoring opportunity or have turnovers

I can't agree that he has the feel or passing ability of Nurkic
Anyways a thread here with some ideas/possibilities

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:00 am

Simmons hates the trade for us. Thinks we gave up the best asset without getting one surefire playoff performer back.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen the national media so all over the place in their reaction to a trade.

Thing is, we didn’t gave up a sure fire playoff performer either, just the guy with the biggest contract.

If you have a chance, listen to the Dunker spot pod…they really hit on everything I feel. They talk Dame in Milwaukee first, but move to suns at the 18:00 mark…I’ll summarize for those who don’t or can’t listen:

Both agreed an engaged Ayton is better than Nurkic. Whether you get an engaged Ayton or not is the question.

Steve Jones Jr is higher on Nurkic’s defense than most. Thinks we have the length to support him(KD, KBD) and the scheme and right coach to make him passable defensively. They said we’ll conservatively have a top 3 offense, so the defense only needs to be 14/15ish.

Nekias likes Little. If he stays healthy he thinks he’s a candidate for the 5th starter. Good combination of defense and someone that can make a play offensively. Only 23 and on a really good contract. 4 years, 30 million.

Felt ok about Allen…especially since he can shoot. Might make teams think twice if he’s the one shooting instead of say Okogie. Mentioned he’ll be hunted defensively in the playoffs. Milwaukee had the size to cover him…he thinks we might but not as certain.

Steve was more concerned about Nurkic finishing than anything.

Didn’t mention Keon Johnson.

They did mention how we just have a lot of options now. Multiple guys for that 5th spot and playoff rotation spots.

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:33 pm

If you have a chance, listen to the Dunker spot pod…they really hit on everything I feel. They talk Dame in Milwaukee first, but move to suns at the 18:00 mark…I’ll summarize for those who don’t or can’t listen:

Both agreed an engaged Ayton is better than Nurkic. Whether you get an engaged Ayton or not is the question.

Steve Jones Jr is higher on Nurkic’s defense than most. Thinks we have the length to support him(KD, KBD) and the scheme and right coach to make him passable defensively. They said we’ll conservatively have a top 3 offense, so the defense only needs to be 14/15ish.

Nekias likes Little. If he stays healthy he thinks he’s a candidate for the 5th starter. Good combination of defense and someone that can make a play offensively. Only 23 and on a really good contract. 4 years, 30 million.

Felt ok about Allen…especially since he can shoot. Might make teams think twice if he’s the one shooting instead of say Okogie. Mentioned he’ll be hunted defensively in the playoffs. Milwaukee had the size to cover him…he thinks we might but not as certain.

Steve was more concerned about Nurkic finishing than anything.

Didn’t mention Keon Johnson.

They did mention how we just have a lot of options now. Multiple guys for that 5th spot and playoff rotation spots.

Thanks for sharing and breaking it down Split! Can the season start already!?!?!?

It was also kind of funny when Steve said he was the 4th option in Phoenix, and asked what he’d be in Portland. Nekias said 4th…haha. Mentioned Scoot, Simons, and Grant. Though I do think grant will get moved.

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:44 pm

It was also kind of funny when Steve said he was the 4th option in Phoenix, and asked what he’d be in Portland. Nekias said 4th…haha. Mentioned Scoot, Simons, and Grant. Though I do think grant will get moved.

Yeah Scoot and Simons got a lot to work out. Grant is gonna be available for sure. In the meantime it’s gonna be interesting for Ayton with his touches.

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:00 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:55 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:22 am

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:56 am

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:36 am

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

He was and could’ve been a true 2nd option in his 2nd year. His suspension threw things off though. Still he averaged the same number of shot attempts as Oubre. I think that was where things went the wrong way. That was his chance to be the player he wanted and he only played 38 games due to the suspension. Then CP3 came and he was never going to be more than a 3rd option.

Still he showed his value in that 3rd year as a 3rd option that played great D and rebounded. 16/12 on high efficiency, with great D, in the playoffs is what we wanted.

My biggest thing is they almost won a championship with him playing the 3rd option/Defense role. Seems like the perfect scenario, but he didn’t want to do that.

Yup. And unfortunately the reality is when a team is competing for a title it's not the best environment to work on player development. That's not Ayton's fault or the Suns' fault.

Except we weren't competing for a title his first two years. Maybe if we had developed him better those first two years, we actually could have won a title in his third year.

Maybe he shouldn’t have taken a diuretic and gotten suspended during a critical development year.