Phx-Suns.Net

I love kawhi leonard, but i agree, people thinking he is a max player or a star player are mistaken. He's a world class role player. I couldn't believe #nbarank put him in the top 25. He was a good 15 spots too high

I like Kawhi, but I would not max him out. It's too bad that he'll probably leave SA if that's what he demands. Somebody will bite and overpay him.

Manning, Rogers, Brady, Rivers, Luck, Breeze, Roethlisberger, Wilson, Capernick are all better than Flacco IMO.

And I think you can make an argument for Matt Ryan and Tony Romo being better too.

The problem with overpaying a QB is that it makes it harder to surround him with the talent he needs in order for the team to compete for a championship. So it's self-defeating. The Bears are learning that now with Cutler (who is horrendous). Yes, QBs are everything, but paying a marginal guy mega bucks doesn't change the reality of his limitations and weaknesses. If a QB isn't very good, but you pay him like he is, then you've already lost and essentially put a ceiling on your team.

It is similar with Kawhi. Sure, you can max him out because you know some yahoo out there is desperate enough to offer that and you don't want to lose him. But it doesn't change the fact he isn't go-to scorer, you can't win with him as your clear-cut first or second best player. So while you've retained a player you value, you've also handicapped your ability to assemble a true contender.

Kawhi can be your third best player. He was that for the Spurs last year, and he can get better. In the NBA it the third wheel usually makes the max or close to it. One way or another he is getting paid, and if he is on my team, there is not way I am letting him go. If I have to overpay by 2-3M per, so be it.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that Kawhi will justify a post-rookie contract max deal if he signs one this summer.

I agree.

Shabazz wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that Kawhi will justify a post-rookie contract max deal if he signs one this summer.

That's a good point. This will be his first non-rookie contract, so we aren't talking LeBron max or something like that.

I just don't know what further development he is going to have to justify paying him the max. Like INF said, he's not a go-to scorer, he plays great D, rebounds, hits open shots, and can be a secondary or tertiary scorer, but that's his ceiling. We had a guy who had similar liabilities who was better at just about everything(except probably shooting) and a good number of people thought he was overpaid when we gave him the first-contract max.

At his prime during his 7SOL Marion was not overpaid. He did too many things and was too good for the system to call him that. He was not perfect, but since there is no cap on max contracts, turns out there are different ways to be worth the max. I believe Kawhi's impact can be on Marion's level and beyond. Again, he currently is a legitimate third best player on a championship team.

Shawn's contract and value will always be up for debate.

Of course. That was just my opinion.

Ring_Wanted wrote:At his prime during his 7SOL Marion was not overpaid. He did too many things and was too good for the system to call him that. He was not perfect, but since there is no cap on max contracts, turns out there are different ways to be worth the max. I believe Kawhi's impact can be on Marion's level and beyond. Again, he currently is a legitimate third best player on a championship team.

I don't think marion was overpaid, but I don't think kawhi is going to be as good as marion. Marion was a 20/10 guy who also was a premier defender and incredibly versatile defender. Kawhi is a 12/6 guy who defends wings really well, but isn't nearly as versatile.

Split T wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:At his prime during his 7SOL Marion was not overpaid. He did too many things and was too good for the system to call him that. He was not perfect, but since there is no cap on max contracts, turns out there are different ways to be worth the max. I believe Kawhi's impact can be on Marion's level and beyond. Again, he currently is a legitimate third best player on a championship team.

I don't think marion was overpaid, but I don't think kawhi is going to be as good as marion. Marion was a 20/10 guy who also was a premier defender and incredibly versatile defender. Kawhi is a 12/6 guy who defends wings really well, but isn't nearly as versatile.

Totally agreed.

Yeah, Marion's level is still a couple notches over current Kawhi. If he becomes a constant 20/10 guy capable to hold his grown defending from the 1 to 4 spot, then we could start talking comparisons.

Marion was such a special specimen both in terms of pure athleticism as well as natural instincts, he was the ultimate human pogo stick, with a nose for guessing where the rebound was going, a gifted finisher around the rim, capped with a really competent shot. So is not so easy to call for Leonard reaching or surpassing Marion's level, we are talking about the one and only Matrix!!!

Split T wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:At his prime during his 7SOL Marion was not overpaid. He did too many things and was too good for the system to call him that. He was not perfect, but since there is no cap on max contracts, turns out there are different ways to be worth the max. I believe Kawhi's impact can be on Marion's level and beyond. Again, he currently is a legitimate third best player on a championship team.

I don't think marion was overpaid, but I don't think kawhi is going to be as good as marion. Marion was a 20/10 guy who also was a premier defender and incredibly versatile defender. Kawhi is a 12/6 guy who defends wings really well, but isn't nearly as versatile.

But Marion did it in about 10 minutes more per game. Their per/40 #s in their 3rd season are very similar. And I don't think it's entirely fair to say Kawhi isn't as versatile. He's not the rebounder Marion is, but he's a better passer and shooter. He can't play the 4 as credibly, but he can create his own offense. He also plays on the most democratic offense in years, so it's hard to say what he could do if he ran his own show.

ShelC wrote:Shawn's contract and value will always be up for debate.

And departure....

There's a debate about the Marion-for-Shaq trade? Maybe at the time, but in hindsight it looks pretty bad.

going back to leonard, i don't remember if i posted about it in this forum but i've held this opinion for a while now. at one point i was super pissed that we took markieff over leonard. at the time i remember that folks on this board all really wanted us to get leonard, the marion-light of that draft class, and most pundits around the nba had touted him for his defense, which translates quite well from the college game to the nba (at least compared to other skills). and then of course we don't get him and the hated spurs do.

but then, after this past finals, i wasn't so upset anymore, because given the organization that we had over those years, i doubt leonard develops as quickly, or at all. yes he would've done well on our team last year under hornacek, but the previous two years would've stunted his growth, and maybe he doesn't develop that 3 point shot because our spacing wasn't as good as the spurs' system. so my point is, i wasn't so pissed off that we could/should have drafted the 23 year old finals mvp because on the suns he wouldn't have been one.

fast forward to today, it's kind of interesting to think what-if again. if we had drafted him, he would not have done so well on the court, but then, it sure seems like we could've kept him on for much cheaper than anything near the max... maybe in the 10 mil range, less than what the morii got as a pair... so once again i'm pissed we didn't get him. thoughts?

Shabazz wrote:

Split T wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:At his prime during his 7SOL Marion was not overpaid. He did too many things and was too good for the system to call him that. He was not perfect, but since there is no cap on max contracts, turns out there are different ways to be worth the max. I believe Kawhi's impact can be on Marion's level and beyond. Again, he currently is a legitimate third best player on a championship team.

I don't think marion was overpaid, but I don't think kawhi is going to be as good as marion. Marion was a 20/10 guy who also was a premier defender and incredibly versatile defender. Kawhi is a 12/6 guy who defends wings really well, but isn't nearly as versatile.

But Marion did it in about 10 minutes more per game. Their per/40 #s in their 3rd season are very similar. And I don't think it's entirely fair to say Kawhi isn't as versatile. He's not the rebounder Marion is, but he's a better passer and shooter. He can't play the 4 as credibly, but he can create his own offense. He also plays on the most democratic offense in years, so it's hard to say what he could do if he ran his own show.

I meant versatile on defense. Marion was a great defensive player on anyone from tony parker to dirk nowitzki. And he also managed to play the passing lanes and defend the rim a bit. He was covering the KG's and Duncan's of the world at times too and while he wasn't as effective on them, he was probably better than amare

I just think absolute best case scenario, kawhi can have a marion like impact. I don't think paying someone to achieve their best case scenario is necessarily smart business. But the point is moot anyways, if he waits till next off season, he'll get a max contract from someone. We live in a world where Hayward and parsons are max level wings