Phx-Suns.Net

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:23 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:35 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:05 pm

I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.

I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8

I think it was Split who said that he thinks we're going to run a lot more this season, and I agree. Payne fits into that. Not 20+ MPG, but I think he's going to get a solid 5-8 minutes per half to do spark plug stuff with the bench players. He can be a difference maker in that role, the problem for him has been staying healthy. I'm fine with giving him a shot at it, but also OK if a deal to move him for a better piece comes along.

Health has been a problem for him. Consistency and decision making have been more impactful ones.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:23 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:35 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:05 pm

I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.

I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8

I think it was Split who said that he thinks we're going to run a lot more this season, and I agree. Payne fits into that. Not 20+ MPG, but I think he's going to get a solid 5-8 minutes per half to do spark plug stuff with the bench players. He can be a difference maker in that role, the problem for him has been staying healthy. I'm fine with giving him a shot at it, but also OK if a deal to move him for a better piece comes along.

That wouldn’t surprise me. Beal and Book and KD will each miss probably at least 10 games each. So long as the team peaks st the right time and roles are carved out come playoff time, it’ll work. But I honestly hope we prioritize Okogie and Goodwin getting minutes over Payne. We need to have an excellent defense and toughness too.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:13 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:23 pm

Drewsprocket wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:35 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:05 pm

I’m having a hard time seeing why Payne should even be in the rotation given the options we have, let alone starting and playing 24 mpg.

I don’t see where Payne fits. We don’t need his scoring in the backcourt anymore. I think he’s mid season trade bait or injury insurance. Here’s a vague breakdown of minutes if we’re healthy and playing a meaningful game. Okogie and Goodwin Will provide perimeter defense. In the regular season we will see a some run from the 10-12 guys. I think the minutes at the 4 spot will be interesting.
Ayton 29 Eubanks 19
Bates-Diop 24 Watanube 24
KD 30 Okogie 18
Book 32 Gordon 16
Beal 32 Gordon 8 / Goodwin 8

I think it was Split who said that he thinks we're going to run a lot more this season, and I agree. Payne fits into that. Not 20+ MPG, but I think he's going to get a solid 5-8 minutes per half to do spark plug stuff with the bench players. He can be a difference maker in that role, the problem for him has been staying healthy. I'm fine with giving him a shot at it, but also OK if a deal to move him for a better piece comes along.

Health has been a problem for him. Consistency and decision making have been more impactful ones.

I think health is a factor in consistency. His best run of form came during a time when he avoided injury for a long stretch.

Decision making, yeah, he's never been better than average at that.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:30 pm

I think health is a factor in consistency. His best run of form came during a time when he avoided injury for a long stretch.

Decision making, yeah, he's never been better than average at that.

It became a bit of a meme that Saric "unlocked" Payne's game, but really it's no accident that Payne played better with a smart high-post playmaker that could trigger a lot of the half court offense.

I have a crazy idea about KD being the first of the team's big 3 to come off the floor and sit for part of the first quarter, like what Dallas used to do with Dirk Nowitzki, and then have KD play the tail end of the first and part of the second quarter with (and against) primarily bench units, as a principal playmaking hub. Let him get great shots for himself and for whichever of Yuta/Gordon/Payne/Goodwin ends up being part of that unit, and have an energy defender or two to rebound and rim defend. Overwhelm those second units and win those minutes big.

I think you're onto something with the KD rotation. He's going to draw the most gravity, so it should be easier for the lesser bench players to be effective with him in that late quarter-start of the next shift.

Book has been traditionally strong in the first quarter so I think it won’t hurt us that much to sit KD earlier.

I know this is a minority opinion, but I think Payne starts. He is the only natural point guard in the rotation, and he can both pressure the rim and play off the ball. Before he got injured near the beginning of the last season, he was playing very well. He will need to change his game a bit to be more of a facilitator, but I think he can adjust to that role. I like Point Book in spurts (maybe even is the backup PG), but I'm not confident Book is as effective in that role. I also don't really like him expending energy defending opposing point guards. I'm not completely sold, though, on starting Payne, but I think it should be explored first.

If that doesn't work well early on, then I would look at starting Book at point with Bates-Diop or Watanabe as the 5th starter.

I was thinking we maybe start Payne and pull him after like 4 minutes each half, going with a normal sub rotation after that - kinda like how Monty used Frank that first year at PF in the middle of the year. Takes the pressure off Beal and Book from having to run the team right away, gets the into a flow and then Book can slide over to point the rest of the quarter and work EG in. Just makes us smaller in the starting lineup with Payne, Beal, Book on the perimeter.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:57 pm

I think you're onto something with the KD rotation. He's going to draw the most gravity, so it should be easier for the lesser bench players to be effective with him in that late quarter-start of the next shift.

We saw this last year. In KD's first stretch of games, Monty ran him with four bench players. After he came back, Monty seemed more inclined to do it with Booker instead. Never understood that. Book + 4 mediocre bench guys is not as good as KD + 4 mediocre bench guys.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:43 am

I was thinking we maybe start Payne and pull him after like 4 minutes each half, going with a normal sub rotation after that - kinda like how Monty used Frank that first year at PF in the middle of the year. Takes the pressure off Beal and Book from having to run the team right away, gets the into a flow and then Book can slide over to point the rest of the quarter and work EG in. Just makes us smaller in the starting lineup with Payne, Beal, Book on the perimeter.

Yeah, I could see that. I'm not sure if you meant for Payne to only get 8 minutes; I see him getting 18-24 minutes per game. I'm slightly concerned about the small Payne-Beal-Book lineup, but with the way the NBA has been trending, I see it working most nights. Payne can really push the pace, which is how I think the Suns should play.

I can understand the thought of going Payne…I just kind of assume Vogel will go bigger

Payne is either hot or cold. Not the biggest fan because usually he makes plays that leave you scratching your head.
10 min a game or so if he is having a good night makes sense.

Really think we need to add another PG though.

Jones has never been big on point guard depth.

Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.

He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.

Carno wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:49 am

I know this is a minority opinion, but I think Payne starts. He is the only natural point guard in the rotation, and he can both pressure the rim and play off the ball.

I think we can all agree that Payne is not a starter-level NBA PG. Or at least he shouldn't be on a team with title aspirations. Even though the Suns don't really have anyone clearly better than him in that exact role, the Booker-Beal backcourt is still far more dangerous and I expect it to be the default lineup for Vogel.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:43 am

I was thinking we maybe start Payne and pull him after like 4 minutes each half, going with a normal sub rotation after that -

This is in NBA2K territory. It's too pragmatic. At the NBA level, even rookies who screw up a lot don't get subbed out at the 8 minute mark in the first quarter.

It does feel odd that a franchise that has played host to some of the greatest PG's to ever play the game is now reliant on Cam Payne!

I get Book, Beal and Durant can handle the ball but not having that pass first PG running our offense feels like a real change to our DNA.

Reliant isn’t the right word. It’s just weird to see him being the only player who is clearly a pg(and only a pg) on the roster. The team could play Booker/Beal 36 minutes each and give Gordon all 24 of the remaining guard minutes pretty easily and only ever have those 3 play in the backcourt. Point is we don’t actually need Payne at all

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:58 am

Point is we don’t actually need Payne at all

Pretty much. One more Goodwin-type guy and Payne is playing elsewhere for the minimum.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:36 am

Booker and Beal are both better "point guards" than Payne. The only reason people think otherwise is because Payne is smaller and faster.

He's also worse at D than both, so he doesn't solve the "who guards Steph" issue, but would create the "Book guards Paul George" issue.

I love how down you are on Cam Payne.

He is better than you give him credit for. True, he has peaks and valleys, but I think you are evaluating him solely based on when he is at his worst.

Payne is our good luck charm. We started winning with his arrival, we’ve won when we’ve utilized him and lost when we haven’t. He’s the one we have to feed, not Ayton.

Jeremy has Ayton, I have Payne.