Phx-Suns.Net

Indy wrote:What is Ryan good at? If the GM is supposed to build a roster and a coaching staff, which includes draft, trades and signings, which of those things has he done above average on?

We don't really know, because we don't know which of our moves were made because of Sarver. He has drafted well, and about half of his trades have been good. He hasn't been bad in free agency, and Jeff H isn't a terrible coach.

Also, Ryan is very young along with the rest of the org. I think he has shown aptitude for the job, and I wonder what the roster would look like without Sarver meddling.

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Hermen wrote:

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Gobert is clearly better. Adams is a better scorer and better coached, but Len is a better defender and still has a higher ceiling, IMO.

I hated the Len pick on draft night, but I like him a lot more than I did then. Of course, the real gem in that draft turned out to be Giannis.

O_Gardino wrote:

Hermen wrote:

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Gobert is clearly better. Adams is a better scorer and better coached, but Len is a better defender and still has a higher ceiling, IMO.

I hated the Len pick on draft night, but I like him a lot more than I did then. Of course, the real gem in that draft turned out to be Giannis.

Wojnarowski just had a podcast with the Bucks' GM, where he says how much it helped Giannis that he got a nice amount of playing time in his rookie year (hint hint) because they had a terrible season. Similar to Brogdon this year. These things always make me wonder how big of a role teams (or a random injury that gives someone a chance) have at player development. How good would Leonard be on the Pacers with George. Or how good would George be if Granger wouldn't get injured.

O_Gardino wrote:

Hermen wrote:

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Gobert is clearly better. Adams is a better scorer and better coached, but Len is a better defender and still has a higher ceiling, IMO.

I hated the Len pick on draft night, but I like him a lot more than I did then. Of course, the real gem in that draft turned out to be Giannis.

I think the measure of all those centers would be, if you asked to trade them one-for-one, which team says no.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:What is Ryan good at? If the GM is supposed to build a roster and a coaching staff, which includes draft, trades and signings, which of those things has he done above average on?

We don't really know, because we don't know which of our moves were made because of Sarver. He has drafted well, and about half of his trades have been good. He hasn't been bad in free agency, and Jeff H isn't a terrible coach.

Also, Ryan is very young along with the rest of the org. I think he has shown aptitude for the job, and I wonder what the roster would look like without Sarver meddling.

I guess we aren't on the same page with the draft, then. I don't think he has drafted better than average.

I'm also fine with the Chandler signing. I think he's been good for both Alex and Devin. I also don't think that Alex is some transcendent talent either, but will have a nice long productive career. He's not a bust, and he will continue to get better. It sucks that again in hindsight the Suns could have traded his pick for two others and picked Giannis and Gobert. Wouldn't those two have been nice with the others we have picked? But, it wouldn't have worked out the same and the Suns wouldn't have gotten the same draft picks after that to get Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender.

In2ition wrote:I'm also fine with the Chandler signing. I think he's been good for both Alex and Devin. I also don't think that Alex is some transcendent talent either, but will have a nice long productive career. He's not a bust, and he will continue to get better. It sucks that again in hindsight the Suns could have traded his pick for two others and picked Giannis and Gobert. Wouldn't those two have been nice with the others we have picked? But, it wouldn't have worked out the same and the Suns wouldn't have gotten the same draft picks after that to get Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender.

I always try to keep in mind that Utah passed on Gobert once or twice (depending on how you count it) and moved up for Trey Burke in that draft. And 26 picks occurred before Gobert was off the board. 15 for Giannis. Lots of GMs got that draft all wrong - including the Jazz, who just happened to strike gold by accident. Had they been targeting Gobert all along, they wouldn't have traded two picks to move up for Burke.

OE32 wrote:

In2ition wrote:I'm also fine with the Chandler signing. I think he's been good for both Alex and Devin. I also don't think that Alex is some transcendent talent either, but will have a nice long productive career. He's not a bust, and he will continue to get better. It sucks that again in hindsight the Suns could have traded his pick for two others and picked Giannis and Gobert. Wouldn't those two have been nice with the others we have picked? But, it wouldn't have worked out the same and the Suns wouldn't have gotten the same draft picks after that to get Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender.

I always try to keep in mind that Utah passed on Gobert once or twice (depending on how you count it) and moved up for Trey Burke in that draft. And 26 picks occurred before Gobert was off the board. 15 for Giannis. Lots of GMs got that draft all wrong - including the Jazz, who just happened to strike gold by accident. Had they been targeting Gobert all along, they wouldn't have traded two picks to move up for Burke.

Yeah, that draft was crazy, and I don't fault Ryan for taking Len. He's not a bust, he's a solid rotation player in a draft that had two surprise stars and a handful of rotation players.

O_Gardino wrote:

OE32 wrote:

In2ition wrote:I'm also fine with the Chandler signing. I think he's been good for both Alex and Devin. I also don't think that Alex is some transcendent talent either, but will have a nice long productive career. He's not a bust, and he will continue to get better. It sucks that again in hindsight the Suns could have traded his pick for two others and picked Giannis and Gobert. Wouldn't those two have been nice with the others we have picked? But, it wouldn't have worked out the same and the Suns wouldn't have gotten the same draft picks after that to get Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender.

I always try to keep in mind that Utah passed on Gobert once or twice (depending on how you count it) and moved up for Trey Burke in that draft. And 26 picks occurred before Gobert was off the board. 15 for Giannis. Lots of GMs got that draft all wrong - including the Jazz, who just happened to strike gold by accident. Had they been targeting Gobert all along, they wouldn't have traded two picks to move up for Burke.

Yeah, that draft was crazy, and I don't fault Ryan for taking Len. He's not a bust, he's a solid rotation player in a draft that had two surprise stars and a handful of rotation players.

I have been a huge Len supporter, but he is a mediocre rotation player right now. I think he has it in him to be solid, he just isn't there yet (at least not consistently).

And that said, he will get at least $18M/year...

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Hermen wrote:

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Gobert is clearly better. Adams is a better scorer and better coached, but Len is a better defender and still has a higher ceiling, IMO.

I hated the Len pick on draft night, but I like him a lot more than I did then. Of course, the real gem in that draft turned out to be Giannis.

I think the measure of all those centers would be, if you asked to trade them one-for-one, which team says no.

My guess is Utah and OKC would definitely say no. Portland and Minny would also say no. I'm not sure on Boston and Philly, but I'm also not sure we say yes to Noel or Olynyk either.

Split T wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Hermen wrote:

Indy wrote: And that was a big mistake. Is there a single center drafted after him that isn't clearly better? Maybe 1 or 2...

I'd say Gobert and Adams are clearly better, Plumlee, Olynyk, Noel, Dieng are debatable, and Len currently contributes more than Nogueira, Withey, Muscala and King Joffrey (not counting Colton Iverson and Alex Oriakhi )

Gobert is clearly better. Adams is a better scorer and better coached, but Len is a better defender and still has a higher ceiling, IMO.

I hated the Len pick on draft night, but I like him a lot more than I did then. Of course, the real gem in that draft turned out to be Giannis.

I think the measure of all those centers would be, if you asked to trade them one-for-one, which team says no.

My guess is Utah and OKC would definitely say no. Portland and Minny would also say no. I'm not sure on Boston and Philly, but I'm also not sure we say yes to Noel or Olynyk either.

Minny plays Dieng at PF anyway right? And Len can't do that really. I wouldn't be so sure about Portland though, they desperately need some defense inside.

Dieng and Towns play together, I'm not sure who the C is in that equation, I don't think it really matters. As for Portland, they could definitely use some defensive help, but they use Plumlee to a lot as a facilitator in their offense. They couldn't do that with Len. But, their offense might be just fine as long as they've got Lillard and McCollum in the backcourt, so I guess they might be ok with the trade.

I think Portland wants Len bad. Good thing they can't go after him this offseason, due to their drunken sailor spending spree last summer.

We'll be able to sign him for 5 years. Maybe that will get him to come down on the per-year amount.

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

OE32 wrote:

In2ition wrote:I'm also fine with the Chandler signing. I think he's been good for both Alex and Devin. I also don't think that Alex is some transcendent talent either, but will have a nice long productive career. He's not a bust, and he will continue to get better. It sucks that again in hindsight the Suns could have traded his pick for two others and picked Giannis and Gobert. Wouldn't those two have been nice with the others we have picked? But, it wouldn't have worked out the same and the Suns wouldn't have gotten the same draft picks after that to get Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender.

I always try to keep in mind that Utah passed on Gobert once or twice (depending on how you count it) and moved up for Trey Burke in that draft. And 26 picks occurred before Gobert was off the board. 15 for Giannis. Lots of GMs got that draft all wrong - including the Jazz, who just happened to strike gold by accident. Had they been targeting Gobert all along, they wouldn't have traded two picks to move up for Burke.

Yeah, that draft was crazy, and I don't fault Ryan for taking Len. He's not a bust, he's a solid rotation player in a draft that had two surprise stars and a handful of rotation players.

I have been a huge Len supporter, but he is a mediocre rotation player right now. I think he has it in him to be solid, he just isn't there yet (at least not consistently).

And that said, he will get at least $18M/year...

I was gonna defend him as a little better than mediocre, but he does what he does on a bad team. I guess I should treat his defensive numbers the same as I treat scoring numbers in that regard. And one thing Adams has over Alex is the proven ability to play under pressure. We have no evidence that Alex can do that.

OE32 wrote:I think Portland wants Len bad. Good thing they can't go after him this offseason, due to their drunken sailor spending spree last summer.

We'll be able to sign him for 5 years. Maybe that will get him to come down on the per-year amount.

Can they give us a pick?

https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA/status/817180132322504704

Hermen wrote:
Wojnarowski just had a podcast with the Bucks' GM, where he says how much it helped Giannis that he got a nice amount of playing time in his rookie year (hint hint) because they had a terrible season. Similar to Brogdon this year. These things always make me wonder how big of a role teams (or a random injury that gives someone a chance) have at player development. How good would Leonard be on the Pacers with George. Or how good would George be if Granger wouldn't get injured.

I agree with this sentiment so much. I secretly wonder how much the Suns have invested in player development, as I see that to be the absolute greatest area of improvement needed by a team in our situation -- team not going anywhere, coach not great with Xs and Os, and rookies, while given exposure to game time, not necessarily under tutelage of former greats (sorry Tyson and Duds) or learning to win. This is also part of the reason I'm not so upset over the Markieff over Kawhi pick (I've mentioned this before)... Had we gotten Kawhi, which as I recall many on this board, including myself, wanted to see happen, I'm not sure we could've made him who he is today. Sure he'd still be a plus defender, but maybe he'd just be a slightly better version of Danny Green in our sorry ass organization.

That's a big roundabout way of saying, absolutely player development matters. Even if we got a guy like Giannis, we might turn him into Cabocolo.

I think you give player development coaches too much credit. I think we have some work to do on that end, but Kawhi and Giannis would be great no matter where they ended up.

Wow. No comments about Korver going to the champs? That's a huge get and all they're giving up is Dunleavy and a '19 first from what I hear.