Phx-Suns.Net

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:You can't put Lebron over MJ. Lebron has crumpled and failed in so many moments where MJ would have gone for the jugular and willed his team to win. Lebron would have 8 titles by now if he had MJ's killer instincts.

I think we fantasize how good MJ was and forget that he had a lot of help being that good. Pippen almost took the Bulls back to the Finals without MJ. Jordan couldn't win anything in Washington and before he got help with Pippen, Phil, Grant ect in Chicago, he didn't lead a bunch of dudes anywhere. In fact, a lot of people openly questioned if he was a winner or not.

LeBron James is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan. Shooter, passer, rebounder, he's bigger, stronger, faster. Skill for skill, LeBron is better. Jordan won more, had IMO a superior supporting cast, but also did it in an era that I think was easier than the era LeBron plays in.

LeBron could come to Phx next year with some deft moves made and make Phx into one of the best teams in the NBA after being the worst team the year before.

When LeBron left Cleveland the first time, they became the worst team in the league immediately. As soon as he comes back, they are in the Finals.

If this argument is about titles, then Bill Russell is the best ever and the argument is over.

What moments has he crumpled and failed in? He checked out the last year in Cleveland and didn't always have the "I'm going to score here no matter what" mentality, but I wouldn't say he crumpled. But if you base who's best on their killer instinct, then yes, you can't put LeBron over Jordan.

If you base it on all the things they do/did on the court, James looks better. He's the better rebounder, better passer, and the more efficient scorer.

Split T wrote:What moments has he crumpled and failed in? He checked out the last year in Cleveland and didn't always have the "I'm going to score here no matter what" mentality, but I wouldn't say he crumpled. But if you base who's best on their killer instinct, then yes, you can't put LeBron over Jordan.

If you base it on all the things they do/did on the court, James looks better. He's the better rebounder, better passer, and the more efficient scorer.

Lebron has lost over half the times he was in the Finals. MJ is undefeated in the Finals, defeating several different opponents, from LA to Portland to Phoenix to Seattle to Utah. MJ would never have lost as many Finals series as Lebron has done. I don't just care about their stats, and even if I did, MJ's stats in the playoffs are amazing. Who gets it done and leads his team to titles? Without question, MJ. Every. single. time. When prime MJ went for a title, nobody could stop him. That's why he's the GOAT.

Dude. It takes so much more than an individual player.

And MJ didn’t go up against teams that were nearly as stacked as the Warriors.

He lost plenty of times before the finals though. And he lost to the magic during his prime...got swept I think. For whatever reason we say Jordan missed two years, but it was really only one and a half.

He was in his prime for plenty of those years before the finals runs. He lost to Detroit a few times. Also, by your standards, shouldn't Bill Russell be the greatest player of all time?

LeBron has never really consistently had a great team around him. Those early Cleveland teams were crap and LeBron carried them to the finals. The Miami team was stacked and he won two titles there. The first 3 years in Cleveland he had a really good team too. So I'd say LeBron had a title contending team 7 times in his career and he won 3 titles. And running into the greatest team of all time is why he didn't win more.

Two questions

If you could start a franchise with any player in NBA history and keep them their whole career, who do you pick?

This is easy for me, it's LeBron. Nobody really comes close to being this elite for this long. Kareem is really the only one.

If you could have any player in his prime for 1 season, who do you pick?

This one is trickier and brings in more options. Prime Shaq? Prime LeBron? Prime Jordan? I actually probably take Shaq.

Split T wrote:He lost plenty of times before the finals though. And he lost to the magic during his prime...got swept I think. For whatever reason we say Jordan missed two years, but it was really only one and a half.

Sure, Jordan lost playoff series when he was younger, in the 80s. Nobody wins it every year.

As for the two-year or 1.5-year absence: He rejoined the Bulls on March 18, 1995 after not playing competitive ball for almost 2 full years. He was totally not in NBA game shape. He had about a month to get ready for the playoffs, and he lost. I'll give him a mulligan on that one. He then followed this by training his ass off all summer and coming back and setting the all-time NBA regular season wins record.

Split T wrote:He was in his prime for plenty of those years before the finals runs. He lost to Detroit a few times. Also, by your standards, shouldn't Bill Russell be the greatest player of all time?

Russell is one of the top 3-4 players in NBA history, for sure. Greatest winner and teammate ever. I don't think his individual greatness could carry a team to titles as much as MJ. They're close, but I give an edge to MJ. It is very close, though; Russell is not far behind MJ here. I would take either of those two over Lebron simply because they both found a way to win (titles) much more consistently than Lebron has.

Split T wrote:LeBron has never really consistently had a great team around him. Those early Cleveland teams were crap and LeBron carried them to the finals. The Miami team was stacked and he won two titles there. The first 3 years in Cleveland he had a really good team too. So I'd say LeBron had a title contending team 7 times in his career and he won 3 titles. And running into the greatest team of all time is why he didn't win more.

The bolded sentence is the most damning. If MJ had had a title contending team for 7 years, he would have won 6-7 titles. In fact, that's essentially what he did.

Split T wrote:Two questions

If you could start a franchise with any player in NBA history and keep them their whole career, who do you pick?

This is easy for me, it's LeBron. Nobody really comes close to being this elite for this long. Kareem is really the only one.

MJ.

Split T wrote:If you could have any player in his prime for 1 season, who do you pick?

This one is trickier and brings in more options. Prime Shaq? Prime LeBron? Prime Jordan? I actually probably take Shaq.

MJ.

Jordan never played anyone nearly as good as the curry warriors. Who's the best team he even beat? 93 Suns? 96 Sonics? Those jazz teams had 35 year old Stockton and Malone's and were not that good.

Jordan had better teammates and easier opponents, so when the argument is Jordan won 6 titles and LeBron only won 3, it doesn't convince me.

Yeah, I'm not convinced at all that MJ won all by himself. In fact, that is a blatant falsehood which isn't even close to the truth being parroted by MJ stans.

It's also not true that LeBron is a victim of his poor teammates and coaching. The noncompetitive culture of his teams start with him.

O_Gardino wrote:It's also not true that LeBron is a victim of his poor teammates and coaching. The noncompetitive culture of his teams start with him.

How good were the Cavs or Heat after he left?

In2ition wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:It's also not true that LeBron is a victim of his poor teammates and coaching. The noncompetitive culture of his teams start with him.

How good were the Cavs or Heat after he left?

Bingo

O_Gardino wrote:It's also not true that LeBron is a victim of his poor teammates and coaching. The noncompetitive culture of his teams start with him.

Nah. Silly.

When it's all said and done, LeBron will have had the greatest career in NBA history. I don't think that will be disputable. That's slightly different than the GOAT argument.

Shabazz wrote:When it's all said and done, LeBron will have had the greatest career in NBA history. I don't think that will be disputable. That's slightly different than the GOAT argument.

Greatest career in NBA history? After going 3-for-8 in the Finals? Ummmmmm.

LeBron is not better fundamentally than Jordan.......

This Thread got Hijacked lol but Heat have upped the physicality and this my reservation with Ben.
Of course the kid is a talent but he thrives in up n down game and without Embiid to go to in the post for half court offense I can see how the Sixers struggling at times

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:

Shabazz wrote:When it's all said and done, LeBron will have had the greatest career in NBA history. I don't think that will be disputable. That's slightly different than the GOAT argument.

Greatest career in NBA history? After going 3-for-8 in the Finals? Ummmmmm.

You're coming at me with the "Count Da Ringzzzz" argument. A favorite of Kobe stans everywhere.

He'll probably end his career as the all time leading scorer and have more All-star appearances and All-NBA teams than anyone in history. That's the tip of the iceberg.

This has been a really good game
Ain't been much easy layups being given up here, Sixers not backing down from the physical play