What went wrong?

[Split T]

I just think people like to pretend that we blew up a promising team to trade for KD…we didn’t…we blew up a team that had peaked and was heading the wrong direction.

We blew up a team that was heading in the wrong direction for a no-better team heading in an even worse direction.

I’m not saying otherwise. Just bugs me when people say we blew up a promising finals team…the team was 2 years removed from the finals…got embarrassed by Dallas at home the year before, CP3 was a shell of himself, Crowder was home, our C wasn’t speaking to the coach and everyone knew it was headed for disaster. Booker couldn’t carry that team by himself and we needed to do something.

That’s all I’m saying…what we decided to do is irrelevant and has no bearing on the situation we were in before the KD trade. It’s easier to be mad about the trade when you can say we blew up a promising young finals team, but it’s just not true.

[Split T]

Cap, I’d love to hear what you would do…maybe you’ve said it somewhere, but I don’t recall it. How would you get us out of this mess?

[Cap]

Definitely trade KD if we can get good value. Trade Beal if possible without attaching significant assets, otherwise just wait it out. Accept that we may be poor for a while, even without our picks, and be patient. The short-term future is lost. Look to the future beyond that. Don’t lose any more of our future to be less sucky in the near term. That approach won’t get us anywhere meaningful.

[Split T]

I think most of us probably agree we need to trade KD. Maybe some disagreements on what the return should be…but with Jimmy not an option anymore, I doubt anyone wants to make an all-in move that keeps Book and KD.

Of course a few want to move Booker too. I’m not there yet…unless the return is insane.

[Cap]

Of course a few want to move Booker too. I’m not there yet…unless the return is insane.

Agreed. We should be taking calls, but hang up if the offers aren’t serious. We’re not going to start haggling over Book.

[ShelC]

You don't take calls about Book.

[Split T]

If Houston got the 1st pick(with our pick) and called on draft night offering Amen Thompson and Cooper Flagg? I’d absolutely take that call. They wouldn’t offer that, but we’d be crazy not to listen.

[Cap]

You don't take calls about Book.

You listen (or read). If the offer isn’t amazing you hang up and don’t tell anyone about it. If the other side talks about it, you can say you didn’t entertain it and pass off the fact that you heard them out as courtesy.

[The Bobster]

Nobody's untouchable.

[TOO]

Nobody's untouchable.

Catholic priest says what?

[JeremyG]

Regarding the ‘22-‘23 team…we were 9-2 in our last 11 games when we made the trade. We were getting it together and figuring it out…especially Mikal and Ayton, while Booker/CP3 were out.

[Split T]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

[Superbone]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

Yeah, who were the geniuses that architected a team of all offense, no size or athleticism, or defense? Maybe it is time for Jones to go. Unless it was all Ishbia's doing. Either way, Jones should have put his foot down. Add Bartelstein to the list.

[INFORMER]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

It really isn't mind-boggling, unless you overvalue Kevin Durant.

On paper, Durant is the perfect basketball talent. But championships aren't won on paper, and this isn't NBA2K, but Ishbia has operated like it is.

Windhorst made a comment on ESPN's trade deadline coverage that the word around the league is that the Suns are great at talent acquisition, but suck at team building.

A Booker-Durant duo as your championship foundation is devoid of leadership and doesn't quite have the mental toughness needed. So you start off with a shaky foundation. The Suns traded everything for Durant, and were left with a broken down Chris Paul and a problematic DeAndre Ayton, and a couple of decent bench players (Landale and Payne).

Going into the 2023 offseason, you had two paths to improve the team: Chris Paul's contract and DeAndre Ayton. With Paul you had two options: leverage his contract for some cap flexibility, or use it in a trade. The Suns chose to trade him for a supermax player that plays the same position as Book and has a NTC. No mystery why that didn't work.

And even before knowing what a colossal failure the Beal trade would turn out to be, it was still obvious that the team had tremendous holes. The last thing we had left to address those holes was Ayton. But it turns out, hardly anyone wanted him. So the Suns dealt him for two role players while giving up what looked like a promising rookie. Grayson Allen turned out better than anyone expected, but he plays the same position as Beal and Booker, so again, you're doubling down on what ultimately is a disadvantage.

People were hyper-focused on Payne's inconsistencies, but he is a solid depth piece and the Suns salary dumped him without any replacement. Eric Gordon may have had value on paper, but he was the fourth shooting guard the front office added. The team was now going to feature four guys between 6-3 and 6-5, and they all played the same position.

And then you have Vogel: a defensive coach that was given a team without any defenders.

And this is just looking at 2023. The Suns dug themselves into a hole that was just too deep to get out of. And this isn't hindsight; yes, the majority applauded most of these moves, but there were certainly those that protested.

[INFORMER]

Maybe it is time for Jones to go. Unless it was all Ishbia's doing. Either way, Jones should have put his foot down. Add Bartelstein to the list.

It's a collective failure. Ishbia has a lot to do with it, but Jones has some fatal flaws that have been consistent throughout his tenure. He is a really bad negotiator. There is generally going to be a low ceiling on anyone he drafts. Who knows what kind of influence Bartelstein is having, but I suspect he is behind the renewed attention toward player development (drafting, using the two-ways).

The problem with Jones is that he doesn't completely suck. You can point to some good things he can do. So that puts you in a tough position of having to weight his net value, and if you can do better.

[Superbone]

Windhorst made a comment on ESPN's trade deadline coverage that the word around the league is that the Suns are great at talent acquisition, but suck at team building.

That's the reputation Sarver/McD had until they somehow miraculously put together the Finals team. Suddenly got the perfect coach, the perfect complement to Book (Paul), and some great home-drafted talent in Ayton, Bridges, and Cam Johnson.

Yes, I mentioned Ayton in spite of his motivation issues and finesse game. However, what I wouldn't give to go back and draft Doncic instead of Ayton and to see what would have happened.

[Split T]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

It really isn't mind-boggling, unless you overvalue Kevin Durant.

On paper, Durant is the perfect basketball talent. But championships aren't won on paper, and this isn't NBA2K, but Ishbia has operated like it is.

Windhorst made a comment on ESPN's trade deadline coverage that the word around the league is that the Suns are great at talent acquisition, but suck at team building.

A Booker-Durant duo as your championship foundation is devoid of leadership and doesn't quite have the mental toughness needed. So you start off with a shaky foundation. The Suns traded everything for Durant, and were left with a broken down Chris Paul and a problematic DeAndre Ayton, and a couple of decent bench players (Landale and Payne).

Going into the 2023 offseason, you had two paths to improve the team: Chris Paul's contract and DeAndre Ayton. With Paul you had two options: leverage his contract for some cap flexibility, or use it in a trade. The Suns chose to trade him for a supermax player that plays the same position as Book and has a NTC. No mystery why that didn't work.

And even before knowing what a colossal failure the Beal trade would turn out to be, it was still obvious that the team had tremendous holes. The last thing we had left to address those holes was Ayton. But it turns out, hardly anyone wanted him. So the Suns dealt him for two role players while giving up what looked like a promising rookie. Grayson Allen turned out better than anyone expected, but he plays the same position as Beal and Booker, so again, you're doubling down on what ultimately is a disadvantage.

People were hyper-focused on Payne's inconsistencies, but he is a solid depth piece and the Suns salary dumped him without any replacement. Eric Gordon may have had value on paper, but he was the fourth shooting guard the front office added. The team was now going to feature four guys between 6-3 and 6-5, and they all played the same position.

And then you have Vogel: a defensive coach that was given a team without any defenders.

And this is just looking at 2023. The Suns dug themselves into a hole that was just too deep to get out of. And this isn't hindsight; yes, the majority applauded most of these moves, but there were certainly those that protested.

I mean you really just reinforced my point. We had Booker, Durant, a broken down CP3 and a C that quit on the team…yet that was the best version of Booker/Durant we got. It just got worse from there. All those moves you are talking about are us failing to put a championship team around them. Honestly if the 2021 postseason version of our C shows up, we probably could’ve won the title that first year. I honestly don’t think we needed much.

[ShelC]

Windhorst made a comment on ESPN's trade deadline coverage that the word around the league is that the Suns are great at talent acquisition, but suck at team building.

That's the reputation Sarver/McD had until they somehow miraculously put together the Finals team. Suddenly got the perfect coach, the perfect complement to Book (Paul), and some great home-drafted talent in Ayton, Bridges, and Cam Johnson.

Yes, I mentioned Ayton in spite of his motivation issues and finesse game. However, what I wouldn't give to go back and draft Doncic instead of Ayton and to see what would have happened.

A lot of those things didn't suddenly or miraculously happen tho. The FO led by Jones put that Finals team together. He inherited Book and DA but supposedly pushed for Mikal. Then he acquired Oubre, drafted CamJ, traded for Dario and Baynes, hired Monty. That was the bubble team that led to us acquiring CP and Jae. People tend to only remember the misses, but to turn the franchise around from where it was in only 2 years is pretty remarkable. Point to Hali or SGA but how many other front offices passed on them. And I think Shamet and Stix were Jones listening to Monty's input as head coach, which end up as blemishes for Jones. But he outlined his philosophy and strategy clearly when talking about team building and culture which we've moved away from with Ishbia and Bartelstein in the mix.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

Yeah, who were the geniuses that architected a team of all offense, no size or athleticism, or defense? Maybe it is time for Jones to go. Unless it was all Ishbia's doing. Either way, Jones should have put his foot down. Add Bartelstein to the list.

The quote is simple...we took on Beal's no trade clause...I can see trying him out, but we f'd ourselves when we didn't demand he drop the no trade when we were giving up those kinds of assets for him...that's where we really went too far...

[Cap]

I just read a bunch of pages on the thread when we got KD and now I’m depressed…how we couldn’t put together a championship team around Book and KD is mind boggling.

Yeah, who were the geniuses that architected a team of all offense, no size or athleticism, or defense? Maybe it is time for Jones to go. Unless it was all Ishbia's doing. Either way, Jones should have put his foot down. Add Bartelstein to the list.

The quote is simple...we took on Beal's no trade clause...I can see trying him out, but we f'd ourselves when we didn't demand he drop the no trade when we were giving up those kinds of assets for him...that's where we really went too far...

If not for that darn NTC I'm sure we'd be getting lots of great offers for Beal.