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Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:18 pm
by In2ition
Indy wrote:Split T wrote:Ya, Ben Simmons is being talked about as the best college freshman since Durant. It's died down a little, probably cuz like Carey said, lsu isn't very good. If Simmons had gone to Duke or Kentucky, he'd be all over ESPN. I'll be thrilled if we land a top two pick, Simmons and Ingram will be all stars, but outside them the draft looks pretty weak.
I assume by "all-stars" you really mean All-NBA, since All-Stars are really just about popularity and not achievements. But either way, do you really see him as being one of the top 5-6 forwards in league?
He has some flaws that he needs to fix, like he hasn't shown any range, at least he never takes 3's. And, his outside shot isn't polished, but he has good mechanics. Also, like INF said, he doesn't have the scoring instincts and assertiveness that you would like to see. But his BballIQ and passing is fantastic. I think he will be one of the top 5-6 forwards in the league in time.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:42 pm
by specialsauce
Indy wrote:carey wrote:Indy wrote: I assume by "all-stars" you really mean All-NBA, since All-Stars are really just about popularity and not achievements. But either way, do you really see him as being one of the top 5-6 forwards in league?
I get fooled by hype as much as the next guy. He does look like he has all the tools though. I wouldn't hesitate to draft him #1.
Here's a question: If you had the 1st pick this year, but could swap it for the first pick next year, would you?
I don't know next year's draft well enough to comment on that, but I pose another question:
-If we get the 2nd-4th pick, would you swap that with the Sixers for J. Okafor?
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:35 pm
by Nodack
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:56 pm
by TOO
specialsauce wrote:Indy wrote:carey wrote:Indy wrote: I assume by "all-stars" you really mean All-NBA, since All-Stars are really just about popularity and not achievements. But either way, do you really see him as being one of the top 5-6 forwards in league?
I get fooled by hype as much as the next guy. He does look like he has all the tools though. I wouldn't hesitate to draft him #1.
Here's a question: If you had the 1st pick this year, but could swap it for the first pick next year, would you?
I don't know next year's draft well enough to comment on that, but I pose another question:
-If we get the 2nd-4th pick, would you swap that with the Sixers for J. Okafor?
Nope.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:00 pm
by Indy
Yes, but how often are mock drafts in February correct after the first pick or two?
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:06 pm
by carey
If we fall to 6 and draft Murray, a Kentucky combo guard, I will laugh until I cry.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:39 pm
by Indy
carey wrote:If we fall to 6 and draft Murray, a Kentucky combo guard, I will laugh until I cry.
Ha!
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:26 pm
by specialsauce
TheOriginalOriginal wrote:specialsauce wrote:Indy wrote:carey wrote:Indy wrote: I assume by "all-stars" you really mean All-NBA, since All-Stars are really just about popularity and not achievements. But either way, do you really see him as being one of the top 5-6 forwards in league?
I get fooled by hype as much as the next guy. He does look like he has all the tools though. I wouldn't hesitate to draft him #1.
Here's a question: If you had the 1st pick this year, but could swap it for the first pick next year, would you?
I don't know next year's draft well enough to comment on that, but I pose another question:
-If we get the 2nd-4th pick, would you swap that with the Sixers for J. Okafor?
Nope.
Really??
Because you're worried about Okafor's character, or talent?
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:18 am
by TOO
Mostly it's his lack of defense and mediocre rebounding I dont like. I dont think he's the type of player you can build around in todays NBA.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:09 am
by Split T
Indy wrote:Split T wrote:Ya, Ben Simmons is being talked about as the best college freshman since Durant. It's died down a little, probably cuz like Carey said, lsu isn't very good. If Simmons had gone to Duke or Kentucky, he'd be all over ESPN. I'll be thrilled if we land a top two pick, Simmons and Ingram will be all stars, but outside them the draft looks pretty weak.
I assume by "all-stars" you really mean All-NBA, since All-Stars are really just about popularity and not achievements. But either way, do you really see him as being one of the top 5-6 forwards in league?
I expect Simmons will be a top 5 forward at some point in his career. I think he's somewhere between grant hill and Lamar Odom. Will be nice if he develops an outside shot.
Ingram should be pretty good too. Has some physical growing to do as I'm not sure he's even 200 lbs at 6'10. He's very much built like Kevin Durant and plays similar too. Obviously not at the same level, but he's still a young freshman, kinda like Booker was. He's putting up 17 pts 7 boards 2 assists 1.5 blocks and a steal while shooting 41% from 3 in the acc.
I'd take both of them over anyone not named Towns or portzingis from last year's draft.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:59 am
by OE32
I haven't watched enough of Ingram. At this point, I prefer both Simmons and Bender. The word on Bender is that he's got a motor that doesn't quit - frankly, IMO, that's the biggest thing we're missing. The only rotation player with a great motor is PJ, who has his (obvious) limitations. We need one of our main guys to be so driven. Obviously, that's one reason to worry about Simmons, but the talent level is so high and it fits our roster so well that he'd also be hard to pass up on.
Y'all joke about Murray, but if we fall to 4, I honestly have no idea who we take. My primary concern is that we won't be able to move Bled, Knight or Archie this season, meaning there's absolutely no wiggle room as far as our backcourt is concerned. We're simply stuffed. Stuffed and injured.
Who's everyone's guy at 4, since we're likely to pick there?
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:49 am
by carey
OE32 wrote:Who's everyone's guy at 4, since we're likely to pick there?
I have no idea. Ellenson, maybe? That's kind of high for him. Rabb would be a reach there. I can't see us taking Dunn with Bledsoe & Knight still here. Plus I worry about his game at the pro-level. The draft right now from what I read breaks down into tiers like this: 1) Simmons and Ingram 2) Dunn, Brown, and Bender 3) The rest of the lottery. So if at 4 we'd have two to pick from Dunn, Brown and Bender. At this point, I think I go Bender I guess even though I like Ellenson's game more.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:33 pm
by carey
Something germane to our conversation that I shouldn't post but that I'll put it in the spoiler tags and post anyway.
Is Ben Simmons still the No. 1 pick?
Chad Ford: We're nearing the end of the college basketball season. LSU's Ben Simmons has sat atop the Big Board since I published the first one in July. Eight months later, he still looks like the favorite among NBA scouts and executives to be the No. 1 pick.
But he does have competition. Duke's Brandon Ingram has been improving all season, and his combination of elite size and scoring ability at small forward is highly attractive to NBA teams. Factor in Simmons' shooting woes and LSU's struggles to make the NCAA tournament and we might have a legit two-man race for the No. 1 pick.
What do the stats say, Kevin? How close are these two in your projections?
Kevin Pelton: There was a stretch of a few weeks where Ingram had the better WARP projection, before the recent shooting slump that has seen him make just 34.0 percent of his 2-point attempts in February.
However, that's largely because of the nature of my projection system. As we've discussed in the past, it's designed to adjust for fluky, outlier performance that won't likely continue in the NBA.
Because that's tied to positional averages, my projections don't believe anyone can truly be as good at both rebounding and playmaking as Simmons has been this season. As he continues to prove his performance is no fluke, Simmons' projection will improve with the same level of play.
When we look at unadjusted stats on Sports-Reference.com, the difference between Simmons and Ingram in terms of production becomes much wider. Simmons has the sixth-best score among freshmen in box plus-minus (a form of statistical plus-minus akin to what helps inform ESPN's real plus-minus) in the Sports-Reference.com database back through 2010-11, behind Anthony Davis,Karl-Anthony Towns, Joel Embiid, Nerlens Noel and Cody Zeller. By contrast, Ingram's BPM ranks 51st among freshmen over that span -- very good, certainly, but not elite.
Whose skills are more unique: Ingram's or Simmons'?
Pelton: Are there reasons scouts believe that Ingram can close that gap in the NBA?
Ford: I think in January, when Ingram was shooting the ball at a much higher clip, the thinking was this: The way the league is evolving, Ingram's shooting ability at his size might trump Simmons' passing and rebounding skills.
In a league where the Warriors are flirting with the best record ever, having an elite shooter, especially a 6-foot-10 one like Ingram, is a rare and valuable commodity. However, I think they might be underestimating just how gifted Simmons really is. Ingram projects as a good shooter. Simmons projects as an elite rebounder and passer.
Can we estimate the relative worth of these skills in a forward?
Pelton: That's tough because there's not really a big sample to draw from in terms of elite rebounding and passing, is there?
Before applying the regression factor, Simmons' LSU stats translate to an NBA equivalent of a rebound rate near 15 percent and an assist rate near six per 100 plays. There's precisely one NBA player who can meet both of those standards this season: Joakim Noah. Draymond Green (14.5 percent rebound rate) andBlake Griffin (13.5 percent) are close.
This is sort of making the argument for Simmons, right?
I think one factor that works in Simmons' favor is the growing value the NBA puts on passing out of big men, with Green as a primary example. The playmaking 4, as popularized by ESPN's Zach Lowe, has become nearly as important as the stretch 4.
To me, the biggest opportunity for offenses in the game today is when a guard gets trapped on the pick-and-roll and throws to the screener, who then has to make a play with a man advantage (there are four offensive players involved and just three defenders). When executed properly, this tends to lead to dunks and wide-open corner 3s.
Nobody is better at this than Green. Well, guess who Simmons' best comparison is via SCHOENE? Draymond Green, and nobody else is particularly close.
Who are comparisons for Ingram and Simmons?
Pelton: I know they have very different body types and motors, but have you heard anyone else draw the Green comparison?
Ford: Yes. And I believe this is why the overwhelming majority of NBA folks think Simmons will be the No. 1 pick. What if Green were 6-foot-10 and athletic? Players that perform like Simmons rarely have his size and athletic abilities.
That said, how much will his lack of shooting affect Simmons' ceiling in the NBA? Green was a career 36 percent 3-point shooter in college and has shot 34 percent in the NBA. Simmons won't even take midrange jumpers right now. Would Green be as effective if he lacked a serviceable jumper?
And if a bigger, more athletic Draymond Green is the best current comp for Simmons, what about Ingram? Rick Pitino compared Ingram to Kevin Durantlast week (before Louisville held him to three baskets and forced 10 turnovers from Ingram). That's seems overly optimistic, though.
Last time we discussed Ingram, I felt like Paul George was a better comp. I still like that one. You were leaning toward Giannis Antetokounmpo.
Where do you see him now?
Pelton: Well, I think Blake Griffin is an interesting example in that regard. He was an even worse free throw shooter than Simmons in college and early in his NBA career before developing into a solid midrange shooter, albeit not a 3-point threat.
Griffin's shooting isn't really an issue when the ball is in his hands, but we've seen the last couple of years how much better Chris Paul-DeAndre Jordan pick-and-rolls work with a spacer at power forward rather than Griffin.
As Griffin's example shows, shooting is not a fixed thing. The same is true of Green, who made two 3-pointers in 17 attempts his first two seasons at Michigan State before making 89 as an upperclassmen. A lot of Simmons' future will be tied to how much he can develop as a shooter.
That same question also applies to Ingram, despite his success beyond the arc. He looms as one of the most interesting test cases yet for my research finding that college free throw percentage predicts NBA 3-point percentage as well as college 3-point percentage.
As good a 3-point shooter as he has been (40.8 percent), Ingram has only been marginally better at the foul line than Simmons (67.5 percent to 67.2 percent). Ingram's attempted more 3s than free throws, so this isn't exactly Justise Winslow hitting 41.8 percent of 3s in a smaller sample (110 attempts) last year at Duke. Still, 3-point percentage tends to be volatile over hundreds of attempts and Ingram may just be riding a hot streak beyond the arc.
Ingram's statistical similarity to George has declined as the season has gone on, and I do think the 3-point ability he has shown distinguishes him from Antetokounmpo.
Intriguingly, SCHOENE now favors another Milwaukee wing: Khris Middleton. Ingram is much bigger than Middleton, but I remember how much Middleton reminded me of Durant when I first saw him play in college. And a "rich man's Middleton" is probably fairer to Ingram as a comparison than players as good as Durant and George.
Can Ingram still pass Simmons?
Pelton: Let's wrap up by posing this question: What could Ingram do the rest of the season to jump Simmons on draft boards?
Ford: It will be interesting. LSU is unlikely to play in the NCAA tournament unless they win the SEC tourney. In other words, Simmons' run is almost over, and it's shown.
His lackluster game on Saturday drew a ton of criticism. Some are raising questions about his competitiveness and the poor performance of his team. But the large majority of NBA folks I speak with think that's nonsense.
He had poor body language in a game where he was taken out of the starting lineup for academic reasons. It happens. Overall, scouts rate his character very highly. It's a selling point, not a detraction, for those who have done their homework.
Nevertheless, it creates an opening for Ingram. If he gets hot in the NCAA tournament -- especially if he starts hitting 3s and Duke can return to the Final Four -- the drumbeat for Ingram to go No. 1 will be loud.
While scouts swear the tournament doesn't really affect their scouting reports, there is plenty of evidence to say that it does. We always underestimate the power of psychology in the draft.
I know you won't be swayed by any of that, Kevin. Your model doesn't weigh the tournament any differently than the rest of the season. So, from an analytics standpoint, is Simmons the clear No. 1 regardless of how the next few weeks play out? Or is this a real two-man horse race for the No. 1 pick?
Pelton: I don't know about the clear No. 1. As I said when we started, their NBA projections aren't that different because of the regression factor.
Still, the challenge for Ingram from a statistical standpoint is that his strongest current skill -- 3-point shooting -- is also the one that's most likely to regress. We don't often see players have a "hot streak" in terms of rebounds, steals and blocks, but those are the skills where Ingram really has room to improve his projection.
So I'd be surprised if Ingram ends up surpassing Simmons in my projections.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:43 pm
by Indy
Thanks carey!
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:29 pm
by Superbone
Yep, thanks! I know a heck of a lot more about these two players now.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:03 pm
by Mori Chu
Why is all that in spoiler tags?
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:10 pm
by carey
Mori Chu wrote:Why is all that in spoiler tags?
It's an insider article.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:24 pm
by Mori Chu
Ohhh. Gotcha. Sorry for being dense. My take on all that is, if you quote subsets of a private article that's okay with me, but we should avoid posting entire articles or from frequently reposting huge amounts of otherwise private content. I think that in general we are doing just fine in that regard and that your post is not at all a problem. Thanks for being sensitive to the issue.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:43 am
by Split T
OE32 wrote:I haven't watched enough of Ingram. At this point, I prefer both Simmons and Bender. The word on Bender is that he's got a motor that doesn't quit - frankly, IMO, that's the biggest thing we're missing. The only rotation player with a great motor is PJ, who has his (obvious) limitations. We need one of our main guys to be so driven. Obviously, that's one reason to worry about Simmons, but the talent level is so high and it fits our roster so well that he'd also be hard to pass up on.
Y'all joke about Murray, but if we fall to 4, I honestly have no idea who we take. My primary concern is that we won't be able to move Bled, Knight or Archie this season, meaning there's absolutely no wiggle room as far as our backcourt is concerned. We're simply stuffed. Stuffed and injured.
Who's everyone's guy at 4, since we're likely to pick there?
I don't get the bender love. We know nothing about him. He never plays. He may turn out to be a great player but for all we know he could be tskitishvili. He's getting compared to Porzingis because he's 7 foot, athletic, skilled, and European. The difference is Porzingis was putting up good numbers in a good league.
As for who I'd take at 4, I'm trying to figure out who I'd take at 3,4,5,and 6. I'd take Dunn if we could move Bledsoe and knight. I think he's a bigger Bledsoe, could maybe be a 2. I think he can be a good pg in this league but not sure. I'd be ok if we took Bender at any of those spots, but only because I'm not high on anyone else but I wouldn't be confident in the pick. I want to like Jamal Murray, but I'm afraid he's Austin Rivers. I wanna like jaylen brown too, but I'm not sure what he is outside of athletic and big for a wing. I think buddy Hield will be good, maybe a cj McCollum or Bradley beal like player. Really I just hope we land a top two pick, I'd feel so much better about this team with Simmons or Ingram on it.
Re: Game Day: Suns (14-42) @ Clippers (36-19), Mon 2/22/16
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:21 pm
by AmareIsGod
Superbone wrote:AmareIsGod wrote:TheOriginalOriginal wrote:AmareIsGod wrote:Booker building a house of bricks lately. Enough to build the rookie wall he seems to have hit.
7/10 would read again.
2/10, 5 points. Unless I'm dyslexic.
I don't know if you are dyslexic or not
but 7/10 was
your score, not Booker's.
Dammit! I missed it. The missing comma or hyphen or something between 7/10 and "would". My comprehension skills can be 2/10 most days.