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We can get both and stagger them.carey wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 7:02 pmRather keep Bender. Awful fit even if I like him as a player. We have to run 4 out I think like Orlando did with Howard. We need shooters not paint cloggers. I have a feeling with Jones comments recently we may be looking at building a traditional half court team though.
It would be nice to have good players at 80% of the starting positions... JFC how low our expectations have been set by the last decade.Split T wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:28 amWould Randle mean no Holmes?
What kind of contract should we expect for Randle? 12 million? 15 million? 18 million?
My thoughts: He’s not an ideal fit next to Ayton as neither are great rim protectors, though Ayton should improve here. And they both are better near the hoop offensively. Randle is pretty good taking people off the dribble from the perimeter and then bullying them once he gets in deep. He’s also improved as a shooter, 34% from 3 last year. So you can play them together. That’s enough for me as Randle is a very good player.
I just can't see how D'Lo would be an answer to any of our problems. If we are going to go after a FA that is likely expecting at least 20M/year, let's go after a good one.
He developed a 3 point shot.In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:37 amI'd rather build the interior and back line defense. Therefore I would rather the Suns target Thaddeus Young and Clarke. Then the Suns could go after a PG like DLo and not worry quite as much about his defensive deficiencies.
I don't think Randle is a great fit on either end with Ayton. They both operate in the same space on offense, which clogs the lane, he's not a good passer. He's like a bigger, better rebounding TJ. On defense, he doesn't offer the weakside help or shot blocking that Ayton needs. But, he is a better interior defender by only a little bit than TJ. So if it was a choice between TJ or Julius, I'd pick Randle for the PF position and hope that he develops a 3 pt shot like TJ did.
I think this is pretty much my view of it, too. Randle doesn't give me what I really want from that position: defense, rebounds, 3s, and ability to work well with our existing players. Randle is a nice player but he would make a lot more sense if our center were either a 3-point shooter or a defensive specialist / rim-runner like Clint Capela. I don't think Randle and Ayton fit well together at all, even though I like them both individually.In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:37 amI don't think Randle is a great fit on either end with Ayton. They both operate in the same space on offense, which clogs the lane, he's not a good passer. He's like a bigger, better rebounding TJ. On defense, he doesn't offer the weakside help or shot blocking that Ayton needs. But, he is a better interior defender by only a little bit than TJ. So if it was a choice between TJ or Julius, I'd pick Randle for the PF position and hope that he develops a 3 pt shot like TJ did.
Well, let's look at what the Suns need.
It's doubly bad when it's your front court that are terrible defenders. I think you can get away with your backcourt having defensive problems, but pairing Ayton with someone that wouldn't have his back and has as many problems on that end of the court is a major problem.Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:51 amI think this is pretty much my view of it, too. Randle doesn't give me what I really want from that position: defense, rebounds, 3s, and ability to work well with our existing players. Randle is a nice player but he would make a lot more sense if our center were either a 3-point shooter or a defensive specialist / rim-runner like Clint Capela. I don't think Randle and Ayton fit well together at all, even though I like them both individually.In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:37 amI don't think Randle is a great fit on either end with Ayton. They both operate in the same space on offense, which clogs the lane, he's not a good passer. He's like a bigger, better rebounding TJ. On defense, he doesn't offer the weakside help or shot blocking that Ayton needs. But, he is a better interior defender by only a little bit than TJ. So if it was a choice between TJ or Julius, I'd pick Randle for the PF position and hope that he develops a 3 pt shot like TJ did.
Even if Randle did become better at 3-point shooting, his defense would still be a major problem. That would mean all 3 of our 3 best players (Booker, Ayton, Randle) would be below-average defenders. We just can't build a core of a team that way.
Williams has said he expects to run a lot of plays through Ayton. I think that limits the need on finding your #2 item. Our primary need from the PG spot is a guy that can handle the ball to initiate the offense, can hit 3s at 38-40% and plays defense since Booker is so bad at it. D'Lo only does one of those 3 things. (Although maybe his improved 3P% from last year is a sign it will get better this next season too)In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:52 amWell, let's look at what the Suns need.
1. They need a PG that can handle the ball, initiate the offense, pass and be a threat to shoot it and score.
2. They need a secondary scorer and playmaker next to Booker. One that can break down the defense on drives, create for themselves and others and be a threat at any time next to Booker to take pressure off of Booker so that teams will think twice about doubling and triple teaming him because he's thought of as the only threat to put pressure on the defense.
3. They also need a PF that can rebound, play weakside help defense and shotblocking, along with interior defense with switchability to jump out on all positions.
4. They need vet help in the starting lineup and on the bench that will contribute to winning.
At least DLo fills 2 of those needs. Then you can work on the other 2 with different moves.
You're right, he did improve greatly this past year, bumping his % up from .222 to .344 this past year while shooting 2 more per game. It's not quite as good as TJ's improvement(who shot the same % as Randle the prior year, but improved to .428), but it's significant.specialsauce wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:50 amHe developed a 3 point shot.In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:37 amI'd rather build the interior and back line defense. Therefore I would rather the Suns target Thaddeus Young and Clarke. Then the Suns could go after a PG like DLo and not worry quite as much about his defensive deficiencies.
I don't think Randle is a great fit on either end with Ayton. They both operate in the same space on offense, which clogs the lane, he's not a good passer. He's like a bigger, better rebounding TJ. On defense, he doesn't offer the weakside help or shot blocking that Ayton needs. But, he is a better interior defender by only a little bit than TJ. So if it was a choice between TJ or Julius, I'd pick Randle for the PF position and hope that he develops a 3 pt shot like TJ did.
He may want to run the offense through Ayton more, but that doesn't negate the need for #2. It will continue to be a need for the Suns if it's not addressed. I hope that Ayton improves greatly at this, this coming year, but I'm not counting on it. It's going to take time some real time. Heck, if Melton keeps working on his shot, he fits your description almost perfectly, but would you say that he is a great option?Indy wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 9:00 amWilliams has said he expects to run a lot of plays through Ayton. I think that limits the need on finding your #2 item. Our primary need from the PG spot is a guy that can handle the ball to initiate the offense, can hit 3s at 38-40% and plays defense since Booker is so bad at it. D'Lo only does one of those 3 things. (Although maybe his improved 3P% from last year is a sign it will get better this next season too)In2ition wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 8:52 amWell, let's look at what the Suns need.
1. They need a PG that can handle the ball, initiate the offense, pass and be a threat to shoot it and score.
2. They need a secondary scorer and playmaker next to Booker. One that can break down the defense on drives, create for themselves and others and be a threat at any time next to Booker to take pressure off of Booker so that teams will think twice about doubling and triple teaming him because he's thought of as the only threat to put pressure on the defense.
3. They also need a PF that can rebound, play weakside help defense and shotblocking, along with interior defense with switchability to jump out on all positions.
4. They need vet help in the starting lineup and on the bench that will contribute to winning.
At least DLo fills 2 of those needs. Then you can work on the other 2 with different moves.
A combo guard is not a bad option next to Booker. In fact, it's probably what the Suns are looking for. Tyler is a combo guard and did pretty well, but he didn't shoot as well as we hoped and he's not nearly as good as DLo. And, although DLo isn't a pass first PG, he is a pretty decent passer. Combine two pretty good passers in DLo and Booker, and that could work pretty well.ShelC wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 9:21 amDLo is not the PG we need. He's a scoring combo guard who has a shoot-first mentality. "But he averaged 7 assists last year". So did Booker.
Ironically, he is to Booker what some think Randle is to Ayton. And I'd still take Randle at 12-15mil a year, replacing TJ's contract, because Randle is a hustling, double-double player. I think Ayton can become a better shotblocker (he averaged just under 1 last year) and defender and think Randle's energy and aggression can maybe rub off of Ayton or at least balance things out when Ayton starts sleepwalking.
DLo and Randle are not perfect fits for us, but they are a big step better than what we have now. They have value around the league. They are the kind of guys Jerry would take a risk on, knowing that he could move them for a potentially better fit if it didn't work out. Same with Oubre.ShelC wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 9:21 amDLo is not the PG we need. He's a scoring combo guard who has a shoot-first mentality. "But he averaged 7 assists last year". So did Booker.
Ironically, he is to Booker what some think Randle is to Ayton. And I'd still take Randle at 12-15mil a year, replacing TJ's contract, because Randle is a hustling, double-double player. I think Ayton can become a better shotblocker (he averaged just under 1 last year) and defender and think Randle's energy and aggression can maybe rub off of Ayton or at least balance things out when Ayton starts sleepwalking.
I'd be happy with that for the right contracts. I don't think there is a big market for Rubio, so I think he could be a bargain contract next year.