Phx-Suns.Net

We play 12 straight games in January against teams currently above .500, I don't think we'll be 10th worst after that. Mavs and bulls are playing better recently and grizzlies and magic should improve when they get healthy. Me guess is this is the highest in the standings we'll be all season.

Oh just came to post about the records but you guys been talking about it already this morning. I will still share this tweet tho
https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/946435934106431488

Orlando looked like a playoff team at the beginning of the year. Injuries and them coming back to earth a bit has turned them into the worst team in the NBA

Ring_Wanted wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I doubt we will draft high enough to get a guy like Trae Young. We are playing ourselves down into the 7-8 pick range.

We're pick 10 right now and probably playing just well enough to stay ahead of almost everyone behind us except maybe Chicago, who have hit form since Mitotic came back.
I think we need to temper our draft expectations to a high single figure pick, with the possibility of being 10-11. (We know the Suns aren't bucking the odds to go up in the order!)

It's absurd that currently we are looking at a #10 pick. There are only like 2 games separating #10 from #2, but if we don't land a real premium prospect this year I'm gonna go crazy. We can't afford to drop entire ranges in this draft because the likes of Troy Daniels or Isaiah Canaan get hot.

This is what I hate about the tanking mentality--getting upset about wins.

This team should be beating the teams we just beat. It shows us things we need to know. It is showing us that Triano is a good coach. BTW. We are never going to see development from Bender, Chriss, Len and even Jackson without having a player like Canaan on the board to get them the ball and Troy Daniels to spread the floor.

Having a good coach and developing a winning environment is important. We are winning playing young guys and young bench players. Who else are you going to play? Its not like we are throwing aging vets out there just to get wins. We have a tough stretch ahead. We will likely lose quite a few of those games and the lotto balls will be secured. But if we win a bunch, I won't complain a bit.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:I doubt we will draft high enough to get a guy like Trae Young. We are playing ourselves down into the 7-8 pick range.

We're pick 10 right now and probably playing just well enough to stay ahead of almost everyone behind us except maybe Chicago, who have hit form since Mitotic came back.
I think we need to temper our draft expectations to a high single figure pick, with the possibility of being 10-11. (We know the Suns aren't bucking the odds to go up in the order!)

It's absurd that currently we are looking at a #10 pick. There are only like 2 games separating #10 from #2, but if we don't land a real premium prospect this year I'm gonna go crazy. We can't afford to drop entire ranges in this draft because the likes of Troy Daniels or Isaiah Canaan get hot.

This is what I hate about the tanking mentality--getting upset about wins.

This team should be beating the teams we just beat. It shows us things we need to know. It is showing us that Triano is a good coach. BTW. We are never going to see development from Bender, Chriss, Len and even Jackson without having a player like Canaan on the board to get them the ball and Troy Daniels to spread the floor.

Having a good coach and developing a winning environment is important. We are winning playing young guys and young bench players. Who else are you going to play? Its not like we are throwing aging vets out there just to get wins. We have a tough stretch ahead. We will likely lose quite a few of those games and the lotto balls will be secured. But if we win a bunch, I won't complain a bit.

+1000

JCSunsfan wrote:This is what I hate about the tanking mentality--getting upset about wins.

This team should be beating the teams we just beat. It shows us things we need to know. It is showing us that Triano is a good coach. BTW. We are never going to see development from Bender, Chriss, Len and even Jackson without having a player like Canaan on the board to get them the ball and Troy Daniels to spread the floor.

Having a good coach and developing a winning environment is important. We are winning playing young guys and young bench players. Who else are you going to play? Its not like we are throwing aging vets out there just to get wins. We have a tough stretch ahead. We will likely lose quite a few of those games and the lotto balls will be secured. But if we win a bunch, I won't complain a bit.

This is a great post. It pisses me off that the NBA's stupid lottery system makes teams like us actually WANT to lose, and makes us get upset when we get wins or pass a team in the standings. It's a backwards incentive and it's completely unhealthy to make teams and fans feel that way.

I'm glad that the league slightly flattened the lottery odds, and that they added more picks into the lottery drawing (didn't they change it from top-3 picks to top-5?). It's a start. But they need to go much further. Maybe just put all 30 teams into an even lottery for all 30 picks, or do a wheel, or something. Anything but this. I don't care if the worst teams don't always get the best picks. The current system only works if you assume that every team is making a good faith effort to win every night, which is not the case.

My problem is not winning (come on). It's that the wins come from (relatively) big performances from players that are not the future, and it impacts the (assumed) quality of the prospect we are going to be drafting after (another) almost insufferable season.

95-97 win over Memphis: Canaan, Daniels and Monroe combine for 32 points.

97-91 win over Dallas: Canaan and Daniels combine for 29 points.

108-106 win over Minni: Canaan and Daniels combine for 32 points.

When june 21 is here, tell me how valuable those wins are to us.

Ring_Wanted wrote:My problem is not winning (come on). It's that the wins come from (relatively) big performances from players that are not the future, and it impacts the (assumed) quality of the prospect we are going to be drafting after (another) almost insufferable season.

95-97 win over Memphis: Canaan, Daniels and Monroe combine for 32 points.

97-91 win over Dallas: Canaan and Daniels combine for 29 points.

108-106 win over Minni: Canaan and Daniels combine for 32 points.

When june 21 is here, tell me how valuable those wins are to us.

THANK YOU.

Again, winning with the young guys being the focal point is a sign of growth and maybe we don’t need such a high pick.

That is NOT how we are winning. We are NOT Philly. We’re not even LA with Lonzo, Ingram and Kuzma having significant roles on the team.

I don't really see all this vets leading us to wins talk.

Our best players are Booker/Warren/Len. We get some occasional contribution from Monroe or Chandler, but we never play both of them. Daniels and Canaan have been mentioned, but they've only contributed when Booker got hurt and they aren't exactly old.

The Lakers start Brook Lopez and kentavious Caldwell pope, neither will be on the team next year. Philly starts JJ Reddick, he's not exactly part of their future. Sacramento has George hill, Vince Carter and Zach Randolph playing big minutes. Dirk and Matthews in Dallas.

Our rotation is actually the youngest rotation in the NBA.

The difference between LA, Philly, and us? Our young guys have almost no involvement in the flow of the game. LA is controlled by Kuzma, Ball and Ingram. Philly is controlled by Simmons and Embiid.

If our measuring stick is Sacramento, we’re in trouble.

Our roster isn't controlled by Booker and Warren?

To me Warren is like Jordan Clarkson, destined for 6th man but holding back the development of others (Josh Jackson, Bender, Chriss)

I think that Chriss, Bender, and Jackson are getting appropriate time on the floor and involvement in the offense right now. Bender has improved, gotten more minutes and been involved more. We are frankly not a good team when they are given too much responsibility. They need to earn playing time and involvement. Chriss needs to play hard every possession. Bender needs to become more consistent and develop other moves to the basket. Jackson needs to fix his broken shot and learn how to make subtle moves with the ball, not balls to the wall every time.

Ring_Wanted wrote:My problem is not winning (come on). It's that the wins come from (relatively) big performances from players that are not the future, and it impacts the (assumed) quality of the prospect we are going to be drafting after (another) almost insufferable season.

95-97 win over Memphis: Canaan, Daniels and Monroe combine for 32 points.

97-91 win over Dallas: Canaan and Daniels combine for 29 points.

108-106 win over Minni: Canaan and Daniels combine for 32 points.

When june 21 is here, tell me how valuable those wins are to us.

Who is to say that Canaan or Daniels are not part of our future? They are not old. Same with Monroe. Maybe we decide to sign him instead of Len.

You want to lose a locker room and create discord? Give players playing time who do not deserve it. Reward bad play and create entitled youngsters who get starting positions and minutes just because they were drafted in a certain spot.

Good grief. The only old players we have are Dudley who gets virtually no time, and Chandler who has been rotating starts with Monroe. To do more than what Triano is doing now is basically asking him to throw games.

specialsauce wrote:To me Warren is like Jordan Clarkson, destined for 6th man but holding back the development of others (Josh Jackson, Bender, Chriss)

I just don’t even know how to respond to this. TJ is a huge part of our future either as a starter or through trade. It is in our best interest that he do well.

Giving playing time based upon draft position alone seems like a formula for being a bad franchise for a long time.

I don’t think Josh deserves playing time on draft status alone. There’s a lot more to basketball than scoring points, and that’s the only thing TJ does. He’s perfect as a microwave off the bench, but he’s absolutely a ball hog and he does not fill the stat sheet at all

In2ition wrote:I think that Chriss, Bender, and Jackson are getting appropriate time on the floor and involvement in the offense right now. Bender has improved, gotten more minutes and been involved more. We are frankly not a good team when they are given too much responsibility. They need to earn playing time and involvement. Chriss needs to play hard every possession. Bender needs to become more consistent and develop other moves to the basket. Jackson needs to fix his broken shot and learn how to make subtle moves with the ball, not balls to the wall every time.

We’re frankly not a good team no matter what we do.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:My problem is not winning (come on). It's that the wins come from (relatively) big performances from players that are not the future, and it impacts the (assumed) quality of the prospect we are going to be drafting after (another) almost insufferable season.

95-97 win over Memphis: Canaan, Daniels and Monroe combine for 32 points.

97-91 win over Dallas: Canaan and Daniels combine for 29 points.

108-106 win over Minni: Canaan and Daniels combine for 32 points.

When june 21 is here, tell me how valuable those wins are to us.

Who is to say that Canaan or Daniels are not part of our future? They are not old. Same with Monroe. Maybe we decide to sign him instead of Len.

You want to lose a locker room and create discord? Give players playing time who do not deserve it. Reward bad play and create entitled youngsters who get starting positions and minutes just because they were drafted in a certain spot.

Good grief. The only old players we have are Dudley who gets virtually no time, and Chandler who has been rotating starts with Monroe. To do more than what Triano is doing now is basically asking him to throw games.

I don’t care about this locker room because the players who would get upset are not players for our future. If Troy Daniels is a main part of our future then we are in for a long period of suckage.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Ring_Wanted wrote:My problem is not winning (come on). It's that the wins come from (relatively) big performances from players that are not the future, and it impacts the (assumed) quality of the prospect we are going to be drafting after (another) almost insufferable season.

95-97 win over Memphis: Canaan, Daniels and Monroe combine for 32 points.

97-91 win over Dallas: Canaan and Daniels combine for 29 points.

108-106 win over Minni: Canaan and Daniels combine for 32 points.

When june 21 is here, tell me how valuable those wins are to us.

Who is to say that Canaan or Daniels are not part of our future? They are not old. Same with Monroe. Maybe we decide to sign him instead of Len.

You want to lose a locker room and create discord? Give players playing time who do not deserve it. Reward bad play and create entitled youngsters who get starting positions and minutes just because they were drafted in a certain spot.

Good grief. The only old players we have are Dudley who gets virtually no time, and Chandler who has been rotating starts with Monroe. To do more than what Triano is doing now is basically asking him to throw games.

Take a look at the +/- from the games I listed. You'll see that the starters (Warren, Jackson, Chriss, Ulis and Chandler/Monroe) did terribly against the other teams' starters. It was the bench what 'saved' us in those very close games; a bench led by Canaan and Daniels, whose playing time was basically equal or bigger than Ulis and Jackson.

With the future in mind, instead of riding the (relatively) hot hand, I cut Canaan and Daniel's playing time some, putting the kids back in. This probably means I lose, but I'll take it. Why? Two reasons (all in theory, of course).

First, it helps the franchise as it puts it in a higer range come draft time. Everybody knows the draft is not an exact science and you can mess up any pick (just like you can stuck gold anywhere), but stats are pretty stubborn and say the higher you pick, the better chance at an allstar.

Second, it helps the prospects. By being tested extensively and failing, the kids can (hopefully) improve for the future. I don't want to see Jackson barely getting 20 minutes, just like I hated Bender's playing time last year (or Warren's rookie season, or Booker's first half of his). They are the supposed building blocks for this rebuilding franchise. By definition, rebuilding is an exceptional situation and it is going to have kids on the floor who don't deserve playing time in a regular team. Does this mean that I am spoiling them? Depends on how I handle this. If I am not making them learn from their mistake, of course they are getting spoiled (see Chriss). But if after they mess up the staff goes on theis asses to review mistakes, explain and drill concepts and point at ways to avoid said mistakes, that 'undeserved' playing time gets a purpose. This is what should be happening with our '17-18 rebuilding Suns.

The bottom line to me is that a handful of wins in december not only don't serve an inmediate purpose when they come on the backs of players like Canaan and Daniels as it doesn't help improving the kids, but actually hurt in the future.

Paradoxically despite the win, to me is a lose-lose situation.