Page 25 of 43
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:23 pm
by Aztec Sunsfan
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm
Kelly at 14.375M vs Crowder at 10M? I would take Kelly every time.
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
But he is gone and it is what the James thought was needed to make our team better. I am fine with that. I just really hope what we have seen so far is not the end of his plans for this season. Because it looks like we got significantly better at PG, and no improvement elsewhere.
No additional backup behind Book/CP3.
No additional front court depth.
And we down-graded in talent (Kelly to Crowder).
If you are going to go all-in on a 35 year old PG making 40M for the next 2 years, then do it. But stop with the half-measures. We only have the next two season before we are completely in cap hell and will be completely hamstrung. With only Ayton and Mikal and Book, we will be in the +90M/year range.
I will cross my fingers and hope to Kahless that our young guys can play +72 games this year the way they did for 8 games in Orlando. And that Book takes another leap. And Paul doesn't fall off. And Dario doesn't play the way he did 90% of last year. And Smith makes all the draft experts look stupid. And Ayton lives up to his tattoo and mouth.
All of that happens, and we will be in a great spot and we can discuss which team we want to face in the western finals.
To say that keeping Oubre instead of Crowder would have render unnecessary all of those lucky breaks is a big stretch.
The bubble Suns can’t be taken as granted, but also can’t be dismissed as nothing to talk about, at least players and comentators around the league are not doing it. Both Mikal and Cam’s mini-leaps, potentially creates a log jam with Kelly, even rendering him redundant on the same per dollar scale. Crowder allows the team to complement the forwards rotation with a different look, and on top of it, with no one about to hit free agency, therefore less pressing needs to be featured among them. You can’t as well dismiss the risk of Oubre stepping on the way of the other two development, if we were going to discuss other kind of scenarios needed to go right.
But still, if Cam and Mikal regress, Kelly is not enough at the 3-4 spot to keep us afloat on the race.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:48 pm
by Drewsprocket
Shabazz wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:22 pm
I had no interest in Teague.
Bring in Shaq Harrison, Jordan McRae and Harry Giles.
Re-sign Dario and Jevon.
Call it a day.
Payne, Jevon, Cam Johnson, Dario, and Jalen is good enough for a bench. + Nader. There will more often than not be a starter in the mix anyway.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:00 pm
by Superbone
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:20 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:35 pm
OF COURSE you don't like it.
Well seeing how I made post talking about how I didn't think Crowder was a good idea BEFORE the news even broke, yeah, OF COURSE I don't like it.
See?!
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:01 pm
by O_Gardino
I don't hate any of the players we brought in this summer, but I can't say I'm thrilled.
Somebody convince me that CP3 + Crowder is better than Rubio + Oubre.
I think the season is in the hands of Payne and Smith. And I don't think we will have Smith long enough to build him up before the season starts.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
by Cap
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm
Kelly at 14.375M vs Crowder at 10M? I would take Kelly every time.
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
You may be conflating what we needed with what we need. Now we have CP3 to be that punch when Book can’t, and we’re looking to DA to take a step forward in that regard as well. If Crowder’s threes are falling, he’ll fit in fine. Give the other guys room to work.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
by Superbone
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:59 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:30 pm
and did we actually think Anderson was gonna be good?
Here is what Planet Orange had to say:
I remember someone saying that his 3 point shooting is not that good due to percentages, but the fact is he routinely pulls up from 3-4 feet behind the 3 point line, and everyone respects him as a shooter and guards him up close. He definitely will help on the court on the offensive side of things, and I still feel like he's a net positive in the locker room, so I'm not down on him.
Anderson knows how to play stretch 4, and will be able to teach a little in the locker room and in practice.
Anderson can still play but in a limited role or you get terribly exploited, although they seem confident that Ayton can cover his ass. If nothing else, now you have a real threat in pick and pop situations for 15-18 mpg.
Somehow the Suns wound up with the two players who spent most of the season as the starting forwards on the team with the NBA's best record last year.
Anderson will help offensively, but his defense can't be described any way other than "bad."
I'm not sure how Anderson fits but I do like that we are acquiring good vets to balance out our young guys. Ryno's salary is gross and probably takes us out of the FA hunt next year...Anderson is a huge upgrade at PF
What the hell? It was a DIFFERENT guy! Sheesh.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
by iLLmatic
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:55 pm
I think you’re wrong Indy (of course).
If this team as it is currently constructed is going to make any real run, it’s going to be because DA and Book are #1 and 2. Everything else needs to complement them. His strengths did not fit. We need to surround them with smart defenders, passers, shooters. He did none of that well.
And I think it’s telling that OKC tossed him to GS right away. He’s not old. He’s not a vet. He’s young and would fit fine with the core of SGA if they felt strongly about him.
That’s now 3 teams that have passed on him in 2 years.
My guess is he's going to want a kings ransom next year.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:07 pm
by iLLmatic
Cap wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm
Kelly at 14.375M vs Crowder at 10M? I would take Kelly every time.
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
You may be conflating what we needed with what we need. Now we have CP3 to be that punch when Book can’t, and we’re looking to DA to take a step forward in that regard as well. If Crowder’s threes are falling, he’ll fit in fine. Give the other guys room to work.
Also throw in the assumption that Cam and Bridges will continue to mature and be able to help more at shown in the bubble.
I think management was done with Oubre after he skipped out on the bubble. It sealed his fate when the team showed it could play well without him.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:10 pm
by Indy
Superbone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:59 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:30 pm
and did we actually think Anderson was gonna be good?
Here is what Planet Orange had to say:
I remember someone saying that his 3 point shooting is not that good due to percentages, but the fact is he routinely pulls up from 3-4 feet behind the 3 point line, and everyone respects him as a shooter and guards him up close. He definitely will help on the court on the offensive side of things, and I still feel like he's a net positive in the locker room, so I'm not down on him.
Anderson knows how to play stretch 4, and will be able to teach a little in the locker room and in practice.
Anderson can still play but in a limited role or you get terribly exploited, although they seem confident that Ayton can cover his ass. If nothing else, now you have a real threat in pick and pop situations for 15-18 mpg.
Somehow the Suns wound up with the two players who spent most of the season as the starting forwards on the team with the NBA's best record last year.
Anderson will help offensively, but his defense can't be described any way other than "bad."
I'm not sure how Anderson fits but I do like that we are acquiring good vets to balance out our young guys. Ryno's salary is gross and probably takes us out of the FA hunt next year...Anderson is a huge upgrade at PF
What the hell? It was a DIFFERENT guy! Sheesh.
??? Split specifically asked what we thought about Anderson when we signed him. We have a long history of being overly excited for signings/picks/trades.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:12 pm
by Indy
Cap wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm
Kelly at 14.375M vs Crowder at 10M? I would take Kelly every time.
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
You may be conflating what we needed with what we need. Now we have CP3 to be that punch when Book can’t, and we’re looking to DA to take a step forward in that regard as well. If Crowder’s threes are falling, he’ll fit in fine. Give the other guys room to work.
I agree that Paul is the one that needs to fill that role. But he also has to run the offense.
And as much as I would like to say that DA can take that step on offense, I haven't seen any sign of it over the last 2 seasons. (That comment about just getting to his 2nd contract is 'success' to him won't get out of my head.)
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:14 pm
by Indy
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:07 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
You may be conflating what we needed with what we need. Now we have CP3 to be that punch when Book can’t, and we’re looking to DA to take a step forward in that regard as well. If Crowder’s threes are falling, he’ll fit in fine. Give the other guys room to work.
Also throw in the assumption that Cam and Bridges will continue to mature and be able to help more at shown in the bubble.
I think management was done with Oubre after he skipped out on the bubble. It sealed his fate when
the team showed it could play well without him.
For 8 games, in an artificial environment, with half of our opponents resting key guys or with key guys injured.
I am rooting for them to do it again for the full 72 this year. I just wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:19 pm
by specialsauce
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:55 pm
I think you’re wrong Indy (of course).
If this team as it is currently constructed is going to make any real run, it’s going to be because DA and Book are #1 and 2. Everything else needs to complement them. His strengths did not fit. We need to surround them with smart defenders, passers, shooters. He did none of that well.
And I think it’s telling that OKC tossed him to GS right away. He’s not old. He’s not a vet. He’s young and would fit fine with the core of SGA if they felt strongly about him.
That’s now 3 teams that have passed on him in 2 years.
My guess is he's going to want a kings ransom next year.
I would take happily bet that Kelly’s first season with Gs will be his only.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:25 pm
by JeremyG
Hmm...so much for the 2-year thing...
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:26 pm
by Indy
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:19 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:55 pm
I think you’re wrong Indy (of course).
If this team as it is currently constructed is going to make any real run, it’s going to be because DA and Book are #1 and 2. Everything else needs to complement them. His strengths did not fit. We need to surround them with smart defenders, passers, shooters. He did none of that well.
And I think it’s telling that OKC tossed him to GS right away. He’s not old. He’s not a vet. He’s young and would fit fine with the core of SGA if they felt strongly about him.
That’s now 3 teams that have passed on him in 2 years.
My guess is he's going to want a kings ransom next year.
I would take happily bet that Kelly’s first season with Gs will be his only.
Well, they do have 140M tied up in 4 players after next season. Even as a team happy to pay the tax, that is going to make it tough.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:27 pm
by Indy
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:25 pm
Hmm...so much for the 2-year thing...
Might be a team option. Is that the BAE contract amount?
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 pm
by specialsauce
After seeing what Melton got (total rip off), I’m relieved.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:30 pm
by Indy
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:23 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:51 pm
specialsauce wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm
Aztec Sunsfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:01 pm
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:33 pm
Kelly at 14.375M vs Crowder at 10M? I would take Kelly every time.
For a single year? Of course, but year two and three get trickier: We have Crowder again for $10, while Kelly is up for a new contract.
$17 a year for Oubre? Crowder adds up to $30 vs $48 for Kelly
20? Then its goes $30 vs $54
Kelly leaves? If the CP3 trade it’s in place, we are out of cap space to replace him, if not, still unlikely and very risky to bet on it, given the crazy contracts we are witnessing.
Bingo.
And Kelly didn’t play the way we need him to play on this team, the role we need from our role players. We need low usage high IQ shooters to surround DA CP and Book
I am not talking about whether I would have traded Rubio/Kelly for CP3. I am saying that Kelly at his current salary does way more per dollar for us than Crowder.
And the role that we needed from him? It was energy and athleticism and crunch time scorer. Who had a better 4Q 3P% on our team? Or crunch-time scoring? We had nobody on the team you could count on in crunch time besides Book. And when teams ran everyone and the kitchen sink at him, or on nights when he just didn't have it, we lose. Kelly was that punch we needed when Book didn't/couldn't do it.
But he is gone and it is what the James thought was needed to make our team better. I am fine with that. I just really hope what we have seen so far is not the end of his plans for this season. Because it looks like we got significantly better at PG, and no improvement elsewhere.
No additional backup behind Book/CP3.
No additional front court depth.
And we down-graded in talent (Kelly to Crowder).
If you are going to go all-in on a 35 year old PG making 40M for the next 2 years, then do it. But stop with the half-measures. We only have the next two season before we are completely in cap hell and will be completely hamstrung. With only Ayton and Mikal and Book, we will be in the +90M/year range.
I will cross my fingers and hope to Kahless that our young guys can play +72 games this year the way they did for 8 games in Orlando. And that Book takes another leap. And Paul doesn't fall off. And Dario doesn't play the way he did 90% of last year. And Smith makes all the draft experts look stupid. And Ayton lives up to his tattoo and mouth.
All of that happens, and we will be in a great spot and we can discuss which team we want to face in the western finals.
To say that keeping Oubre instead of Crowder would have render unnecessary all of those lucky breaks is a big stretch.
The bubble Suns can’t be taken as granted, but also can’t be dismissed as nothing to talk about, at least players and comentators around the league are not doing it. Both Mikal and Cam’s mini-leaps, potentially creates a log jam with Kelly, even rendering him redundant on the same per dollar scale. Crowder allows the team to complement the forwards rotation with a different look, and on top of it, with no one about to hit free agency, therefore less pressing needs to be featured among them. You can’t as well dismiss the risk of Oubre stepping on the way of the other two development, if we were going to discuss other kind of scenarios needed to go right.
But still, if Cam and Mikal regress, Kelly is not enough at the 3-4 spot to keep us afloat on the race.
That wasn't my intent. I am not arguing against trading away Kelly. I think it was the perfect time to trade him as his value probably won't get much higher (especially because we likely couldn't afford to re-sign him). My point was if you are really going all in, then go all in. Instead, we are counting on all of those lucky breaks, when we could have been making moves and spending our salary dollars to do more.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:58 pm
by Superbone
Indy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:10 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:03 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:59 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:30 pm
and did we actually think Anderson was gonna be good?
Here is what Planet Orange had to say:
I remember someone saying that his 3 point shooting is not that good due to percentages, but the fact is he routinely pulls up from 3-4 feet behind the 3 point line, and everyone respects him as a shooter and guards him up close. He definitely will help on the court on the offensive side of things, and I still feel like he's a net positive in the locker room, so I'm not down on him.
Anderson knows how to play stretch 4, and will be able to teach a little in the locker room and in practice.
Anderson can still play but in a limited role or you get terribly exploited, although they seem confident that Ayton can cover his ass. If nothing else, now you have a real threat in pick and pop situations for 15-18 mpg.
Somehow the Suns wound up with the two players who spent most of the season as the starting forwards on the team with the NBA's best record last year.
Anderson will help offensively, but his defense can't be described any way other than "bad."
I'm not sure how Anderson fits but I do like that we are acquiring good vets to balance out our young guys. Ryno's salary is gross and probably takes us out of the FA hunt next year...Anderson is a huge upgrade at PF
What the hell? It was a DIFFERENT guy! Sheesh.
??? Split specifically asked what we thought about Anderson when we signed him. We have a long history of being overly excited for signings/picks/trades.
That's fine. It's just a different player and different situation. Not sure why we're even talking about it.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 pm
by Superbone
Very happy with the Carter contract. He deserves it. I hope he keeps up his bubble play.
Re: Free Agency Thread
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 pm
by Superbone
Start the season already!
