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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:23 pm
by Indy
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:14 pm
I also want to upgrade every position. Just want to begin with the weakest link, which is PF. And for that we don't need to move Mikal or Cam (or Oubre). Just not bringing back Saric and Baynes is enough to have a shot at one of the three bigs I mentioned (of course, while also dropping Jerome, Okobo, Diallo). Dumping/letting all them go gives us around 20M in cap space after using the pick.
I honestly don't understand why we are talking about Rubio when he has done his job and there are resources to solve more pressing needs than upgrading from him. For the record, I'd actually entertain adding to him (and Booker) in the case the draft or a trade provided the PF we need (for instance, a move for Lauri would leave us room to pursue FVV).
I think Wood is the only guy in your list I would be enthusiastic about paying the next 3 years.
And again, I am not actively shopping Rubio. I am saying that he is an average PG, but making more than average pay. If you want to maximize your team, you have to get more production than pay.
Would you swap Kelly and ??? for a re-signed FVV?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:34 pm
by Ring_Wanted
I wouldn't use Oubre for a FVV sign and trade. I really want to keep Oubre unless it is for a player that unquestionably elevates us, and I don't know if that's FVV. I am interested in Fred, but as a FA sign and provided I have added a PF I want.
As for the production-pay ratio, I am fine with Rubio. You don't get among the league leaders in passing and fastbreaks with just any starter PG. Keep in mind we have a plethora of players who need to be fed and not everybody is as adept as Rubio in that area. It is not a given that adding a better shooter but worse director nets us more wins. On the other hand, I am pretty confident that a better PF than Saric gives us a much better chance.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:08 pm
by Indy
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:34 pm
I wouldn't use Oubre for a FVV sign and trade. I really want to keep Oubre unless it is for a player that unquestionably elevates us, and I don't know if that's FVV. I am interested in Fred, but as a FA sign and provided I have added a PF I want.
As for the production-pay ratio, I am fine with Rubio. You don't get among the league leaders in passing and fastbreaks with just any starter PG. Keep in mind we have a plethora of players who need to be fed and not everybody is as adept as Rubio in that area. It is not a given that adding a better shooter but worse director nets us more wins. On the other hand, I am pretty confident that a better PF than Saric gives us a much better chance.
I am totally fine with what he gave us this year too. I know I do not say that enough. He absolutely exceeded my expectations on offense.
I am more worried about what year 3 looks like and the opportunity cost of next year's free agency if his production goes the way it typically does for over 30 year old non-elite PGs.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:09 pm
by Indy
And on FVV, I don't think we would have been a much better team this year with him over Rubio. I am thinking more about the next 2-3 years as Booker works through his current contract.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:37 pm
by INFORMER
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
----------Rubio ------FVV
WS--------4.9---------5.8 (4.9 of 34 wins and 39 losses is better than 5.8 of 53 and 19)
Having greater share in less success isn't an advantage.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:46 pm
by INFORMER
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
Suns 2013-2014, Dragic and Bledsoe.
Don't mess with chemistry the painful lesson there
You're misappropriating cautionary tales. In the 2014 offseason, McD did what you are asking of the Suns; he retained just about everyone, the Morris Twins (that was a great idea), Bledsoe (another great idea), etc. and added to the roster. No one got traded. People blame Isaiah Thomas's addition for messing up everything, but the Suns, the previous year, really exceled when Dragic was the primary point guard. So with or without Thomas, that wasn't going to happen.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:48 pm
by INFORMER
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:24 am
And it's not even two days old but I'll rehash it anyway:
Again, if you don't have an NBA player backing up Rubio, then that is going to make a huge difference when he isn't on the court.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:48 pm
by INFORMER
ShelC wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:14 am
FVV is the guy the Knicks overpay for who then turns into Howard Eisley.
Howard Eisley on his best day is about half the player FVV is.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:49 pm
by INFORMER
virtual9mm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:35 am
Ditching Rubio would be such a McD kind of thing to do. Penny wise and pound foolish -- if even that.
Not really. McD didn't trade people until they wanted to burn down the franchise.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:51 pm
by INFORMER
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:20 am
I woildn't try to fix what has proven to be not broken. Trading Rubio or Oubre is not something I'd actively pursue.
I would probably only move Oubre if he isn't in the long-term plan. And there is a chance he isn't.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:54 pm
by INFORMER
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:50 am
Rubio--I am not actively looking to shop him.
Me neither. I think there are a couple of good scenarios that the Suns should target, Golden State being at the top of the list. I don't think you put a for sale sign on Rubio and play the situation for the highest bid; I don't see value in that. You move Rubio as part of a bigger plan, as one move in a series of several.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm
by INFORMER
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:17 am
Rubio was 7th on the team in Usage %. He was good for our team this year. But any average starting PG in the league could do that for us, and give us the flexibility to add pieces to our team that we are missing. We have no depth.
specialsauce wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:21 pm
IMO the position we are most consistently outplayed by each night is PG.Our PG more often than not is outplayed by his opponent. Not always, but probably more often than any other position in our starting 5
Exactly.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:40 pm
by Ring_Wanted
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:46 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
Suns 2013-2014, Dragic and Bledsoe.
Don't mess with chemistry the painful lesson there
You're misappropriating cautionary tales. In the 2014 offseason, McD did what you are asking of the Suns; he retained just about everyone, the Morris Twins (that was a great idea), Bledsoe (another great idea), etc. and added to the roster. No one got traded. People blame Isaiah Thomas's addition for messing up everything, but the Suns, the previous year, really exceled when Dragic was the primary point guard. So with or without Thomas, that wasn't going to happen.
Not quite. McD let Frye go, and he was a tremendous weapon on offense with Dragic in the pick and pop. Yet, instead of a big man he went after another PG. Big mistake. And in the 13-14 season, Dragic and Bledsoe together led the team to a 19-11 record before Bledsoe's injury, a significantly better winning % than with Dragic alone. After Bledoe's injury, and despite Dragic and Green, the rest of the regular season was a slow (but quite evident at the time; still don't understand why they didn't make a deadline move) fall from the playoff spots.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:37 pm
by 3rdside
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:37 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
----------Rubio ------FVV
WS--------4.9---------5.8 (4.9 of 34 wins and 39 losses is better than 5.8 of 53 and 19)
Having greater share in less success isn't an advantage.
It's an indicator of who's contributing more to team success, which on a proportionate basis is Rubio.
To be clear, I too am not opposed to trading Rubio when the time is right but I don't think that's what we're debating - we're debating a straight swap FVV for Rubio today and there is literally no evidence other than hope value to suggest it's a good idea.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:39 pm
by INFORMER
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:40 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:46 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
Suns 2013-2014, Dragic and Bledsoe.
Don't mess with chemistry the painful lesson there
You're misappropriating cautionary tales. In the 2014 offseason, McD did what you are asking of the Suns; he retained just about everyone, the Morris Twins (that was a great idea), Bledsoe (another great idea), etc. and added to the roster. No one got traded. People blame Isaiah Thomas's addition for messing up everything, but the Suns, the previous year, really exceled when Dragic was the primary point guard. So with or without Thomas, that wasn't going to happen.
Not quite. McD let Frye go, and he was a tremendous weapon on offense with Dragic in the pick and pop. Yet, instead of a big man he went after another PG. Big mistake. And in the 13-14 season, Dragic and Bledsoe together led the team to a 19-11 record before Bledsoe's injury, a significantly better winning % than with Dragic alone. After Bledoe's injury, and despite Dragic and Green, the rest of the regular season was a slow (but quite evident at the time; still don't understand why they didn't make a deadline move) fall from the playoff spots.
True, regarding the team's success; Dragic excelled but there was talent void with Bledsoe out of the lineup.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:44 pm
by Furlanfufi
There's any chance we add Boban to our team? Just for the fun of it?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:45 pm
by 3rdside
Ring_Wanted wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:40 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:46 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
Suns 2013-2014, Dragic and Bledsoe.
Don't mess with chemistry the painful lesson there
You're misappropriating cautionary tales. In the 2014 offseason, McD did what you are asking of the Suns; he retained just about everyone, the Morris Twins (that was a great idea), Bledsoe (another great idea), etc. and added to the roster. No one got traded. People blame Isaiah Thomas's addition for messing up everything, but the Suns, the previous year, really exceled when Dragic was the primary point guard. So with or without Thomas, that wasn't going to happen.
Not quite. McD let Frye go, and he was a tremendous weapon on offense with Dragic in the pick and pop. Yet, instead of a big man he went after another PG. Big mistake. And in the 13-14 season, Dragic and Bledsoe together led the team to a 19-11 record before Bledsoe's injury, a significantly better winning % than with Dragic alone. After Bledoe's injury, and despite Dragic and Green, the rest of the regular season was a slow (but quite evident at the time; still don't understand why they didn't make a deadline move) fall from the playoff spots.
I think you've missed the point here - chemistry is an intangible that is hard to find and easily lost. McD ruined it because he didn't know what he was doing and by ditching Frye (primarily) and bringing in Thomas (secondly) it changed everything.
If you find a winning formula look for the reasons for it and don't, whatever you do, mess with it - tinker with it, but don't mess with it. McD did and we got burned.
8-0 against playoff teams is enough of a trend to be interested in, and Rubio was a big part of that, so let's not make the same mistake twice.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:50 pm
by 3rdside
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:48 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:24 am
And it's not even two days old but I'll rehash it anyway:
Again, if you don't have an NBA player backing up Rubio, then that is going to make a huge difference when he isn't on the court.
I'm not sure this is a legitimate take - every team will have a weak spot somewhere so to pin all of the team's performance when Rubio is not the court on the lack of a backup point guard seems a bit of a reach. I might be wrong but i'm inclined to think otherwise.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:53 pm
by INFORMER
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:37 pm
INFORMER wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:37 pm
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 am
----------Rubio ------FVV
WS--------4.9---------5.8 (4.9 of 34 wins and 39 losses is better than 5.8 of 53 and 19)
Having greater share in less success isn't an advantage.
It's an indicator of who's contributing more to team success, which on a proportionate basis is Rubio.
Eh, that is fuzzy logic.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 pm
by 3rdside
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:17 am
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:24 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:07 pm
Rubio is what makes Monty's system work like it does
I don't see it that way. Monty's .5 system calls for essentially every player on the court to be a part of facilitating the offense. This isn't a system where one guy dominates the ball and everyone is dependent on him. Each player makes plays for other. We saw it from Ayton, Saric, Cam, Mikal, and of course, Booker.
Rubio contributed to the success as well, don't get me wrong. And I think you need a capable passer at the point. I just wouldn't go as far as to say Rubio "makes the system work."
This. Rubio was 7th on the team in Usage %. He was good for our team this year. But any average starting PG in the league could do that for us, and give us the flexibility to add pieces to our team that we are missing. We have no depth.
Indy this is a deceptive statsistic - Baynes and Kaminsky were above him but played about a half and a third of Rubio's minutes, and I don't even know who Jared Harper is.
So you could argue it's just Ayton in 2nd (23.7%) and Oubre in 3rd (22.4%) who are above Rubio on 20.4% which is not exactly a chasm of difference.
What I believe is Rubio brings intangible benefits that go beyond statistics - by being a pass first guard it gets others involved, creating chemistry and a positive team vibe (sharing is caring, to use a saying) so things like hockey assists go up, amongst other things as everyone buys into the team-first and not me-first approach.