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Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:14 pm
by Drewsprocket
What crime is showing your junk to an employee doing a physical evaluation on you?
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:24 pm
by TOO
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:14 pm
What crime is showing your junk to an employee doing a physical evaluation on you?
Why does your dick need to be out if the isn't doctor examining it? WTF kind of question is this?
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
by Shabazz
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:29 pm
by TOO
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
According the Lowe all this started in 2004, so it is indeed the case. Dudes been a piece of trash for a very long time.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
I'm defending Mori's "teachable moment" take. If no one was willing or able to stand up to him from the start then there was no incentive for him to change his behavior. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the circumstances aren't ordinary.
We can't apply standard social norms to a lot of this stuff because the NBA is and its stakeholders hold more authority than a typical person. It's just not as black and white as some people believed it would be.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:08 pm
by TOO
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
I'm defending Mori's "teachable moment" take. If no one was willing or able to stand up to him from the start then there was no incentive for him to change his behavior. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the circumstances aren't ordinary.
We can't apply standard social norms to a lot of this stuff because the NBA is and its stakeholders hold more authority than a typical person. It's just not as black and white as some people believed it would be.
I don't know how much more black (or anti black) and white it needs to be. He's a racist fuck and I hope all the players sit out.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:36 pm
by Flagrant Fowl
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:08 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
I'm defending Mori's "teachable moment" take. If no one was willing or able to stand up to him from the start then there was no incentive for him to change his behavior. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the circumstances aren't ordinary.
We can't apply standard social norms to a lot of this stuff because the NBA is and its stakeholders hold more authority than a typical person. It's just not as black and white as some people believed it would be.
I don't know how much more black (or anti black) and white it needs to be. He's a racist fuck and I hope all the players sit out.
I don't want my comments to come across as defending Sarver or the punishment levied by the league.
It's simply not that easy to say the players should sit out. The NBA is a $10B revenue business with thousands of stakeholders and millions of consumers who don't really care about this issue.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:59 pm
by JeremyG
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:36 pm
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:08 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
I'm defending Mori's "teachable moment" take. If no one was willing or able to stand up to him from the start then there was no incentive for him to change his behavior. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the circumstances aren't ordinary.
We can't apply standard social norms to a lot of this stuff because the NBA is and its stakeholders hold more authority than a typical person. It's just not as black and white as some people believed it would be.
I don't know how much more black (or anti black) and white it needs to be. He's a racist fuck and I hope all the players sit out.
I don't want my comments to come across as defending Sarver or the punishment levied by the league.
It's simply not that easy to say the players should sit out. The NBA is a $10B revenue business with thousands of stakeholders and millions of consumers who don't really care about this issue.
It’s actually very simple and easy. If no one suits up for Suns games, he’s not going to be able to remain owner for long at all.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:04 pm
by JeremyG
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:28 pm
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:14 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:50 pm
I have mixed feelings about this outcome. I don't like or condone any of the Sarver behaviors outlined in the report. It's gross and discriminatory. I also think that most of the incidents cited are not completely reprehensible on an individual basis; it's more about the preponderance of the evidence over the years. Several of the examples cited sound to me like "locker room" boy crap that went too far over the line, like making jokes about players' genitals or things like that. But several examples, like sizing up female employees' bodies, discriminating against them for getting pregnant, firing black coaches / agents on questionable grounds, etc. bother me a lot.
I personally think that we should have more space in society today to allow people to make mistakes, be punished for them, and to hopefully grow and change and be better. I do think Sarver should face a significant punishment for all this stuff. Fining him $10m (max allowable) and suspending him a year is a fairly strong penalty. I wish it were 2-3 years, but whatever. I actually don't think the league should have forced him to sell. I don't think this stuff rises to Sterling level, and I sincerely believe that a person could learn to stop behaving in these kinds of ways and be better. Hopefully Sarver is learning to do that, and he can take a year off to better himself and try to show that he can grow.
I don't think it is necessary to completely run him out of polite society for these incidents. I think we should strongly criticize him, punish him, and ask him to be better. And then give him a chance to do that. To me this kind of punishment gives him that kind of space. Once he returns, I hope there is a zero tolerance policy for any racist or sexist behavior of the kinds described in this report; any repeat offense would in my mind be grounds for forcing him to sell.
Anyway those are my thoughts on it. Maybe I'm a softy, but I favor teachable moments over complete cancellations or shunnings. I respect those of you who feel differently and want him out. I, too, would be happier with a different Suns owner, not only because of the examples in this report but also because the guy just seems like a bad basketball decision-maker who lets his pettiness and ego lead him to make bad choices that hurt our team.
Ok now imagine you're the guy he's whipping his dick out in front of, or the husband of the women that he was degrading, GTFO with this teachable moment shit. He's a grown adult man, this is unacceptable. I hope the players all ask for trades to force his ass out.
I’m with you.
He literally showed his penis to an employee.
“If you own the company you can get away with it” was the last rebuttal. So where’s the line drawn. What if he put his penis on their desk? Their leg?
His ass should be gone. The NBA is complicit
It wasn’t just once:
First, Sarver once unnecessarily dropped his underwear and exposed his genitals to a male employee who was on his knees in front of Sarver performing a fitness check that Sarver had requested and had undergone before. Past experience would have taught Sarver that dropping his underwear was unnecessary for the fitness check. The employee asked Sarver to pull his underwear back up, and Sarver did. The employee found Sarver’s conduct inappropriate and recounted the incident contemporaneously to two other team employees.
Second, Sarver once grabbed a male employee at a Suns holiday party and danced “pelvis to pelvis” with him. The employee found Sarver’s conduct unwelcome, uncomfortable, and inappropriate.
Third, in 2016, Sarver used a shower meant for use by coaches and stood naked in front of a male employee after emerging from that shower. The employee reported being shocked and “extremely uncomfortable” during the incident and told two other team employees about it contemporaneously.
While preparing to take a shower at team facilities, Sarver entered an adjacent room where a male employee and a female employee were meeting. Upon seeing them, Sarver made a comment to the female employee, reported as “you gotta get out of here . . . you’ve never seen anything this big.” The female employee found Sarver’s comment inappropriate.
https://www.wlrk.com/wp-content/uploads ... Report.pdf
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:32 pm
by Shabazz
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:38 pm
Shabazz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:50 pm
No one was holding him accountable 18 years ago.
This is a strange argument and I’d counter that if that’s in fact the case, he should be held to a higher standard.
I'm defending Mori's "teachable moment" take. If no one was willing or able to stand up to him from the start then there was no incentive for him to change his behavior. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the circumstances aren't ordinary.
We can't apply standard social norms to a lot of this stuff because the NBA is and its stakeholders hold more authority than a typical person. It's just not as black and white as some people believed it would be.
I’m generally not looking to cancel anyone and would support “teachable moments” in many instances, but I think I just have more sympathy for a 25 year old, or a junior employee than I do for a 60 year old man who has been terrorizing an organization unchecked for 18 years. Just with the N-word stories alone, he was clearly told that it was wrong and he didn’t give a shit. He pantsed an employee in front of dozens of people. That didn’t stop him from continuing to be sexually inappropriate.
This is no idiot. He knows the difference between right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate workplace behavior. He just fancied himself above it all.
Now that he’s been outed and there are mountains of evidence, all of a sudden he’s remorseful and sorry for the hurt that he caused. I call bullshit.
I’m not going to deny that I was hoping (and still hope) this was a means to an end to get rid of him, because on top of being an entitled asshole, he’s an atrocious owner and likely the single biggest reason we haven’t won a title yet. He makes it embarrassing to be a Suns fan.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:43 pm
by Superbone
I want him gone. I hope this pushes him out. I just hope the next owner is a decent human being.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:51 pm
by JeremyG
If he did the things he did to the male employees to female employees he would be gone.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:01 pm
by JeremyG
Rev. Al Sharpton calls on team owners to oust Robert Sarver after NBA investigation's findings
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/ ... 369901002/
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:08 pm
by JeremyG
This part of the report seems very strange:
Uncredited Report of N-word Use: Head Coach Hiring
The investigation did not substantiate ESPN’s report, attributed to “a high-level executive who heard the remark,” that “Sarver once used the N-word when trying to explain to a staffer why he preferred hiring [a Black head coach]” in 2013, allegedly saying, “‘These [N-words] need a [N-word].’”
The investigators did not identify anyone who heard this remark or heard Sarver say that the head coach’s hiring was motivated by race. The investigators interviewed every current or former Suns executive who the investigation suggested might have been involved in the head coach’s hiring, and many others who might have had knowledge of the decision. None of these witnesses—even those who corroborated other accounts of Sarver purporting to repeat the N-word—said Sarver made the quoted remark.
Couldn’t they just ask Baxter who the executive was, or if he didn’t want to divulge sources, have him ask the executive to speak to them?
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:45 pm
by iLLmatic
Bob sounds creepy af and he might have some homosexual tendencies.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:59 pm
by Drewsprocket
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:24 pm
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:14 pm
What crime is showing your junk to an employee doing a physical evaluation on you?
Why does your dick need to be out if the isn't doctor examining it? WTF kind of question is this?
Lol. That’s one way you can read the question. I dig your energy though. It’s a crime. He should be knocking on the fucking doors of his neighbors.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:19 pm
by Superbone
Kent Somers from the Arizona Republic:
After damning NBA report, why is Robert Sarver still owner of Suns, Mercury?
► Show Spoiler
Kent Somers
Arizona Republic
The NBA issued a statement Tuesday, but it failed miserably in making one.
The league announced it had suspended Suns and Mercury majority owner Robert Sarver for a year and fined him $10 million after an investigation found Sarver “engaged in conduct that clearly violated common workplace standards.”
The punishment was more than a love tap from the league, but not much more. Sarver got off easy, even though the $10 million fine was the maximum allowed by league rules. He still is the majority owner of both franchises, and for that he should be thankful, because he deserved to have both franchises taken from him.
That can be done by three-fourths vote of the NBA's Board of Governors, but it doesn't appear anyone from the league is pushing that.
The league’s investigation found that on at least five occasions in his 18 years of ownership Sarver used the “N-word when recounting the statements of others." He also engaged in “inequitable conduct with female employees,” made “sex-related” comments in the workplace, made “inappropriate comments” about the physical appearance of female employees and other women, engaged in inappropriate physical conduct toward male employees and yelled, cursed and demeaned his employees," according to the investigation.
It seems the NBA confirmed nearly everything in ESPN’s story from last November, which prompted the league to investigate.
If any one of us committed any one of those transgressions in our workplace, we would be getting toe-tagged by HR.
But Sarver’s the owner, so all he receives is a suspension, a fine and enrollment in a training program “focused on respect and appropriate conduct in the workplace.”
Ten million dollars is a significant amount to everyone, including those, such as Sarver, who is worth between $400 million and $800 million, depending upon who is estimating.
But while he’s away for a year, Sarver will no doubt see the Suns' value increase. From 2020 to 2021, Forbes estimated it increased 6 percent, to $1.8 billion, about $1.4 billion more than Sarver and his partners paid for it in 2004.
A similar increase this year would mean an increase in value of $108 million, which seems conservative, given the completion of renovations to Footprint Center. Taxpayers are paying for $150 million of that $230 million cost.
If he had any self-awareness, Sarver would thank the NBA for its benevolence, disappear for a year and return a better man and a better owner for the experience.
That’s what any smart person who received better than he deserved would do.
Instead, Sarver is grasping the frame of his office door and digging his feet into the carpet as he’s being led, or dragged, to the exit.
ESPN reported that Sarver “was unaccepting” that he deserved the year’s suspension and $10 million fine, and the “punitive part of the process became largely acrimonious.”
Sincere contrition doesn’t come with “but,” “however,” and “while I" attached. But that’s how statements made Tuesday from Sarver and his representatives read.
They began by noting the investigation found “none of Mr. Sarver’s actions or comments were based on racist, prejudiced, or misogynistic intent.” And they point out the league supposedly confirmed that there was no evidence, whatsoever, to support several of the accusations in ESPN’s reporting from November 2021. And finally, that the NBA recognized that the Suns organization started improving its HR department and workplace culture long before the NBA’s investigation began.
Then, via the statement, Sarver took accountability, at least according to his definition of the word.
“While I disagree with some of the particulars of the NBA’s report, I would like to apologize for my words and actions that offended our employees. I take full responsibility for what I have done. I am sorry for causing this pain, and these errors in judgment are not consistent with my personal philosophy or my values.”
It's hard to believe those “errors in judgment” were not completely consistent with Sarver’s values during much of his 18 years as a Suns owner. He created a hostile and poisonous work environment. Employees feared going to the human resources department, so their only choice was to cringe and bear it, or leave.
The NBA’s investigation noted most of the employees who engaged in acts of misconduct have left the organization. In July of 2021, the team hired a new head of human resources, Kim Corbitt, and that workplace policies and training have been updated.
Those are positive changes, no doubt. Meanwhile, the man responsible for creating a toxic culture remains at the top of the organizational chart, suspended and fined, but apparently not humbled. The NBA should have taken one additional step to fix that: Make Sarver sell his share of the teams.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:18 pm
by Mori Chu
Sarver's / the org's statement is shitty and not sufficiently contrite.
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 am
by Gladiator
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:18 pm
Sarver's / the org's statement is shitty and not sufficiently contrite.
Bit of this vibe to it, wasn’t there?
Re: Allegations of racism and misogyny within the Phoenix Suns: Inside Robert Sarver's 17-year tenure as owner
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:31 am
by TOO
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:18 pm
Sarver's / the org's statement is shitty and not sufficiently contrite.
The guy still doesn't think he's done anything wrong, why would it be anything less than insufficient?