Phx-Suns.Net

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:51 pm**

Glad we didn't make the move and glad I didn't keep up with this thread.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:20 am**

It will be very interesting to see how IT and Kyrie perform under different coaches. If Kyrie takes a step forward and IT takes a step back, the gap between the two will be pretty big. Otherwise, that pick was a heck of a lot to give up for a minor upgrade. But I think Kyrie will look very good playing in Boston, and IT will come back down to earth a bit.

Cavs wanted a win-now vet PG, a promising young player, and a good pick. They ended up getting a win-now PG, a meh young player, and a very good pick. It's a better trade for them than I thought they would get.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:49 am**

Agreed. The pick was key so they can win now and plan for the future, not unlike getting Bledsoe and Jackson but that's a better deal. Both players will need time to adjust...Kyrie will need to adjust to more team ball and getting guys like Tatum and Hayward the ball....IT will need to adjust to giving up the ball to LBJ and playing off as a scorer.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:20 am**

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Wow. Huge trade. The best two teams in the East swap point guards.

I think Boston really wins this deal. I like Kyrie a lot more than IT if I'm building a team, as I have said before. The pick will be the prime asset given out by Boston here, but they have lots of picks and young players and can afford to give it up. Crowder is not an asset I value very highly; rotation player but nothing too special. Boston has been eagerly throwing him in trades for a year or more now.

I really think this haul is fool's gold for Cleveland. IT is injured and will demand a max contract in a year. Crowder is meh. The pick is basically all they get, and they are unlikely to get a player with that pick who is better than Kyrie. I can't imagine that Lebron is very psyched about this deal.

Does this foreshadow that they will also trade Lebron? I know the general expectation is that he would play out the coming season and then potentially leave. But would Lebron really want to play with Isaiah Thomas? I think IT is going to drive him crazy with all of his ballhogging. Either that, or if Lebron runs the offense, IT will become a mostly useless spot-up shooter, which isn't his strength. I just hate the fit of Lebron + IT for the Cavs. I don't think it works at all.

Is there a way for me to simply post this exact same post but the opposite of it.

I think Boston got played big time. I don't see much difference between IT and Kyrie (I get they are 3 years apart, but Kyrie seems to play older than he is--not in a good way). I know Kyrie is capable of playing better defense because he has size, but he chooses not to do so. I would rather have a guy trying hard than a guy that quits. The "IT will demand the max in 12 months" is the exact same argument people will say about Kyrie... in 12 months.

Crowder is a decent player that makes Cleveland a better defensive team. So they stayed even on offense, got better on defense, and could very well have the #1 pick in a (predicted) best draft in years.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:21 am**

Oh, and no way Kyrie can be as effective as a 1-on-1 scorer when you swap out Lebron for Tatum on the opposite side of the floor.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:53 am**

Indy wrote:
Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Wow. Huge trade. The best two teams in the East swap point guards.

I think Boston really wins this deal. I like Kyrie a lot more than IT if I'm building a team, as I have said before. The pick will be the prime asset given out by Boston here, but they have lots of picks and young players and can afford to give it up. Crowder is not an asset I value very highly; rotation player but nothing too special. Boston has been eagerly throwing him in trades for a year or more now.

I really think this haul is fool's gold for Cleveland. IT is injured and will demand a max contract in a year. Crowder is meh. The pick is basically all they get, and they are unlikely to get a player with that pick who is better than Kyrie. I can't imagine that Lebron is very psyched about this deal.

Does this foreshadow that they will also trade Lebron? I know the general expectation is that he would play out the coming season and then potentially leave. But would Lebron really want to play with Isaiah Thomas? I think IT is going to drive him crazy with all of his ballhogging. Either that, or if Lebron runs the offense, IT will become a mostly useless spot-up shooter, which isn't his strength. I just hate the fit of Lebron + IT for the Cavs. I don't think it works at all.
Is there a way for me to simply post this exact same post but the opposite of it.

.ƧIHT

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:04 am**

It's never a good sign when both Indy and Cap 100% disagree with my take.

I just think that this past season was an inflated version of IT, the best he'll ever have in his career, and unlikely to be repeated. I think his numbers will drop in CLE. But I think Kyrie really is as good as he showed this year in Cleveland and maybe even capable of more. We will just have to watch and see.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:07 am**

Here's Nate Duncan's podcast talking about this trade (~26 min):

http://nateduncannba.com/podcast-episod ... ed-boston/

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:20 am**

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:It's never a good sign when both Indy and Cap 100% disagree with my take. I just think that this past season was an inflated version of IT, the best he'll ever have in his career, and unlikely to be repeated. I think his numbers will drop in CLE. But I think Kyrie really is as good as he showed this year in Cleveland and maybe even capable of more. We will just have to watch and see.

I agree with your takes on IT and Irving. Irving will be better for Boston this upcoming season than IT would have been. Time will tell if the delta is worth the pick. Also want to point out that Crowder has way more value to Cleveland than Boston. With Hayward, Tatum, and Brown ready to take minutes this year, Crowder was looking at a big dip in minutes.

I know this is a stretch, but it occurred to me that Boston may be clearing the way to make a run at Cousins.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:21 am**

Indy wrote:Oh, and no way Kyrie can be as effective as a 1-on-1 scorer when you swap out Lebron for Tatum on the opposite side of the floor.

I see this take often and don't quite understand it so Indy you're saying you expect Kyrie scoring or at least efficiency to go down because he is no longer on the court with Bron ?

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:45 am**

One thing I don't think I have articulated well in my posts: I do think that Cleveland got a great haul for Kyrie here. They get a very valuable pick that is likely to be top-5-6 or so in what seems to be a strong draft. They got Isaiah Thomas, who just had a phenomenal season for Boston and is in his prime; and they get a nice role player in Crowder. That's honestly better than what the Suns were offering. You could even argue that it's better than the Suns deal even if we had included Jackson.

So when I say that Boston "won" the trade, I don't mean that Cleveland shouldn't have done it. CLE did great; seems like they picked the best option here. I just mean that I think the deal was a good one for Boston and will give their team a higher ceiling. I would predict Boston to go to the Finals from the East this coming season. And I can picture a Kyrie-led Celtics team, with all their other talent and their excellent coaching from Stevens, giving the Warriors a tough Finals if they face each other there. I also like Kyrie more as a lead PG and like his overall projection better than that of IT for the rest of their careers. So by that logic I feel like Boston comes out better overall.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:47 am**

*** Not to give everybody whiplash, but I'm seeing a few people on Twitter saying that it's possible that IT would fail his physical due to his injuries, which would put this trade in jeopardy or at least stall it. I haven't found a link to an article about this on a major site. Is anybody else seeing that?

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:57 am**

bajanguy008 wrote:
Indy wrote:Oh, and no way Kyrie can be as effective as a 1-on-1 scorer when you swap out Lebron for Tatum on the opposite side of the floor.
I see this take often and don't quite understand it so Indy you're saying you expect Kyrie scoring or at least efficiency to go down because he is no longer on the court with Bron ?

I heard that there is an odd metric that shows that players don't get better by playing with LeBron. In fact, they play worse, which seems antithetical

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:02 am**

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:One thing I don't think I have articulated well in my posts: I do think that Cleveland got a great haul for Kyrie here. They get a very valuable pick that is likely to be top-5-6 or so in what seems to be a strong draft. They got Isaiah Thomas, who just had a phenomenal season for Boston and is in his prime; and they get a nice role player in Crowder. That's honestly better than what the Suns were offering. You could even argue that it's better than the Suns deal even if we had included Jackson.

So when I say that Boston "won" the trade, I don't mean that Cleveland shouldn't have done it. CLE did great; seems like they picked the best option here. I just mean that I think the deal was a good one for Boston and will give their team a higher ceiling. I would predict Boston to go to the Finals from the East this coming season. And I can picture a Kyrie-led Celtics team, with all their other talent and their excellent coaching from Stevens, giving the Warriors a tough Finals if they face each other there. I also like Kyrie more as a lead PG and like his overall projection better than that of IT for the rest of their careers. So by that logic I feel like Boston comes out better overall.

LeBron is still on the Cavs. I can't see Boston beating them in a series.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:07 am**

I saw that about IT's injury. Cleveland's anxious to check him out during his physical. Woj was saying the Cavs don't expect it to be a major holdup. Would be a bad look tho if they rejected the trade.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:00 am**

The Bobster wrote:Sorry, but Irving isn't that much better than Thomas.

In fact, Thomas was markedly better last year.

The only real advantage I would give him is that he's 3 years younger.

Completely disagree. I think Kyrie is much better than IT.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:32 am**

JCSunsfan wrote:
The Bobster wrote:Sorry, but Irving isn't that much better than Thomas.

In fact, Thomas was markedly better last year.

The only real advantage I would give him is that he's 3 years younger.
Completely disagree. I think Kyrie is much better than IT.

Agreed

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:18 pm**

In2ition wrote:
JCSunsfan wrote:
The Bobster wrote:Sorry, but Irving isn't that much better than Thomas.

In fact, Thomas was markedly better last year.

The only real advantage I would give him is that he's 3 years younger.
Completely disagree. I think Kyrie is much better than IT.
Agreed

I haven't seen Kyrie lead a team to a great season as the #1 option and not much else. I know IT is a flawed player, but he plays harder and has been more successful on his own than Kyrie.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:20 pm**

bajanguy008 wrote:
Indy wrote:Oh, and no way Kyrie can be as effective as a 1-on-1 scorer when you swap out Lebron for Tatum on the opposite side of the floor.
I see this take often and don't quite understand it so Indy you're saying you expect Kyrie scoring or at least efficiency to go down because he is no longer on the court with Bron ?

I am saying that you don't leave Lebron to help out on Kyrie. But you do leave Crowder, or Bradley, or nearly anyone on the Celtics to try and stop IT. And they couldn't.

Posted: **Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:04 pm**

Indy wrote:
bajanguy008 wrote:
Indy wrote:Oh, and no way Kyrie can be as effective as a 1-on-1 scorer when you swap out Lebron for Tatum on the opposite side of the floor.
I see this take often and don't quite understand it so Indy you're saying you expect Kyrie scoring or at least efficiency to go down because he is no longer on the court with Bron ?
I am saying that you don't leave Lebron to help out on Kyrie. But you do leave Crowder, or Bradley, or nearly anyone on the Celtics to try and stop IT. And they couldn't.

Yes this never ceases to amaze me how he's so effective against defense that loading up to stop him which is a testament to IT talent but my thing is Kyrie is just as adapt if not better at breaking down defenses and it is just not because Bron has been on the court with him. The dude has his question marks such as leadership and being the focal point on a Winner but as for a 1 on 1 player, I have no doubt Kyrie would be scoring the same way if he was on C's last year in my humble opinion

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