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Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:03 pm
by Indy
Cap wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:36 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
So does Pippen’s MVP candidacy during MJ’s baseball hiatus diminish MJ’s legacy?
The Bulls replaced MJ with Pete Myers and still contended for a title. I dare say the current Lakers without LeBron wouldn’t be as good.
Exactly. Pippen led that team to a Conference Finals without MJ. Tell me how well a team does the year after Lebron leaves?
And AD wasn't a better player this year than Pippen was at his peak. Nobody else on this Lakers team is more than a slightly above average player, and most were below average.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm
by Cap
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:03 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:36 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
So does Pippen’s MVP candidacy during MJ’s baseball hiatus diminish MJ’s legacy?
The Bulls replaced MJ with Pete Myers and still contended for a title. I dare say the current Lakers without LeBron wouldn’t be as good.
Exactly. Pippen led that team to a Conference Finals without MJ. Tell me how well a team does the year after Lebron leaves?
And AD wasn't a better player this year than Pippen was at his peak. Nobody else on this Lakers team is more than a slightly above average player, and most were below average.
Nit pick: it was the Conference Semis when they lost to the Knicks in 7 due to an infamous phantom foul. (No replay in those days, also different rules about what constitutes a foul.) Of course, the Knicks ultimately went on to lose the Finals in 7.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:59 pm
by Indy
fair nit pick. I still think the point is valid about that Bulls team being stacked.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 pm
by Drewsprocket
AD vs Pippen is a difficult comparison. Pippen was a shot maker, creator, and lead defensive player against other scorers all the while being well coached, on an established team. I would compare AD’s hypothetical sans Lebron success to that of KG when he was with the TWolves at best.
I just as well wouldn’t compare Lebron to MJ, either. Their games are so far apart from one another. Lebron’s game is a hybrid of Pippen, Magic, and Malone - neither of whom I would say dominated the league the way Lebron has. I can’t imagine however any team Lebron has played on would have ever defeated MJ’s Bulls in the 90s.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:47 pm
by BookTheGoat
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
Since when is a duo a super team?
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:32 am
by Indy
Drewsprocket wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:43 pm
AD vs Pippen is a difficult comparison. Pippen was a shot maker, creator, and lead defensive player against other scorers all the while being well coached, on an established team. I would compare AD’s hypothetical sans Lebron success to that of KG when he was with the TWolves at best.
I just as well wouldn’t compare Lebron to MJ, either. Their games are so far apart from one another. Lebron’s game is a hybrid of Pippen, Magic, and Malone - neither of whom I would say dominated the league the way Lebron has. I can’t imagine however any team Lebron has played on would have ever defeated MJ’s Bulls in the 90s.
I think the Miami teams would have prevailed. That is the best overall team (and coaching) Lebron has been on. I agree that it is unlikely the Cleveland team (and no way this Lakers team) would have won. The Bulls had a much better roster (sans MJ) than either of those teams sans Lebron.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:33 am
by Indy
BookTheGoat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
Since when is a duo a super team?
Agreed. Was Stockton/Malone a super team? What about when Houston traded for Barkley?
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:04 am
by specialsauce
Has a championship team in recent history not had two stars? The only I can think of are the Pistons and last years Raptors (don’t count Lowry on same level as Kawhi, Lebron, AD)
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:12 am
by ShelC
Last year's Raptors aren't beating a healthy Ws team.
And this year's Lakers team wasn't all that special. They ran into a smaller, injured Heat team that was grinding its way thru the East. The Bubble Suns would've given the Lakers more trouble.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:22 am
by Indy
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:04 am
Has a championship team in recent history not had two stars? The only I can think of are the Pistons and last years Raptors (don’t count Lowry on same level as Kawhi, Lebron, AD)
You could argue the Spurs never had 2 top 10 players after their first championship.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:23 am
by Cap
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:33 am
BookTheGoat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
Since when is a duo a super team?
Agreed. Was Stockton/Malone a super team? What about when Houston traded for Barkley?
If Pippen, Barkley and Olajuwon had all been in their primes when they joined up, it would have been a super team.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:01 am
by Superbone
BookTheGoat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
Since when is a duo a super team?
When they are the two best players in the NBA.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:31 am
by Split T
Superbone wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:01 am
BookTheGoat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
LeBron combining with Davis should diminish his legacy rather than increase it. The greats from the past didn't create super teams.
Since when is a duo a super team?
When they are the two best players in the NBA.
Good thing they’re more like 1 and 5 then.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:59 am
by Indy
I am not sure I would put AD in the top 5. I guess if you just look at him when he is locked in and playing hard, sure. But that isn't as often as it should be for a top 5 player. If you were given your choice of picking any two players for a single season to lead you to a championship, I am not sure many folks would pick AD as the #2.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:08 am
by Split T
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:59 am
I am not sure I would put AD in the top 5. I guess if you just look at him when he is locked in and playing hard, sure. But that isn't as often as it should be for a top 5 player. If you were given your choice of picking any two players for a single season to lead you to a championship, I am not sure many folks would pick AD as the #2.
I think you probably gotta take Lebron, so it becomes who fits best with Lebron. I do think AD has a pretty good case there. I’m not sure there is a better fit alongside Lebron. Perhaps a healthy Curry or Durant, just from their ridiculous talent and ability to be deadly off the ball.
Feels like there is too much overlap between Luka, Giannis, or Harden and Lebron. That leaves Lillard? Or Jokic? I think I’d take AD.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:21 am
by Ring_Wanted
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:22 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:04 am
Has a championship team in recent history not had two stars? The only I can think of are the Pistons and last years Raptors (don’t count Lowry on same level as Kawhi, Lebron, AD)
You could argue the Spurs never had 2 top 10 players after their first championship.
Dallas 2011 only had Dirk (this is why that title puts Dirk on another level and why it was such a stain for Lebron).
Olajuwon in his first title didn't have Drexler (and when he did the following year, Clyde was not in his prime anymore).
David Robinson was not in his prime either for the Spurs in 1999, and neither were Parker or Ginobili in 2003.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:42 am
by Split T
Sometimes teams win championships and sometimes stars win championships. The Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Raptors titles are teams winning IMO. Now there are stars on those teams, but in all those situations, the stars fit into the team. I think the Warriors were also a team winning and then morphed into stars winning when they got Durant.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:01 pm
by Indy
Split T wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:42 am
Sometimes teams win championships and sometimes stars win championships. The Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Raptors titles are teams winning IMO. Now there are stars on those teams, but in all those situations, the stars fit into the team. I think the Warriors were also a team winning and then morphed into stars winning when they got Durant.
I am still amazed at the Cleveland title over the 73 win Warriors. I hadn't seen a championship like that where a star just took over and won it.
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:19 pm
by specialsauce
MJ Pippen
Robinson Duncan
Kobe Shaq
Dwade Shaq
Garnett Pierce Allen
Pau and Kobe
Dwade Lebron Bosh
Lebron Kyrie
Warriors
Duncan and Kawhi ??
These were all top 15 players (maybe Duncan at that age was a stretch)
Point is I don’t think what the lakers did is all that crazy. It’s not the dubs adding KD to an already championship team level crazy
Re: NBA Playoffs 2020
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:36 pm
by Mori Chu
Indy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:01 pm
I am still amazed at the Cleveland title over the 73 win Warriors. I hadn't seen a championship like that where a star just took over and won it.
The best argument for Lebron as GOAT (which I do not agree with, as is well documented here) is how he tore the heart out of that record-breaking 73-win Warriors team. They were thought to be unbeatable, but he proved otherwise. Really impressive title win for him and the Cavs there.