Phx-Suns.Net

The Draft lottery is a crap shoot, but ultimately you traded away a chance to draft a player with the potential to be better than Kyrie and thomas for Kyrie.

I think the Celtics are a better team today for the trade, absolutely. But all things being equal, Cavs got the better value. An all star, a valuble "other guy" on one of the best contracts in the league, and an unprotected pick in a draft where the top 5 is loaded. Not to mention Zizic, but I think it just depends how much you like Irving.

I do think the Celtics have enough to beat the Cavs in the east now, or atleast take it the distance, but Warriors would role them still IMO.

Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next Michael Beasley. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

You see the Celts having a great chance against the Cavs? I get Hayward will give them another dimension, I just don't see it putting them as the favorite. Unless by "great chance" you still meant under 50%.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

Also, those in glass houses...

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Well that team was built for LeBron. Build one around Kyrie and it might be different. I also don't use best player on a championship team as my qualifier for a star. There's maybe 5 of those guys in the NBA. Kyrie will be the best player on the Celtics and I think they've got a real shot at going to the finals.

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

Also, those in glass houses...

Zing!

And, yeah, I agree that the Cavs are still the favorite this season. But the Celts have a much better crack at them this year than last, and the Celts are the defacto favorites to own the east if Lebron leaves the Cavs next year.

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

Also, those in glass houses...

Zing!

And, yeah, I agree that the Cavs are still the favorite this season. But the Celts have a much better crack at them this year than last, and the Celts are the defacto favorites to own the east if Lebron leaves the Cavs next year.

That I agree with, but I would have said that regardless of if they traded for Kyrie. The way I see it, it all comes down to what it was worth to the Celts to maintain their current level of play once Lebron leaves, without having to max out anyone else (after Gordon). This trade really just buys them one extra year of IT-like offensive performance without having to pay IT after next year. They are kicking the can down the road one extra year, hoping they can be in the Finals Kyrie's last year of this contract with Lebron gone from the East. And that plan is fine. But they paid a big price to do that.

Split T wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Well that team was built for LeBron. Build one around Kyrie and it might be different. I also don't use best player on a championship team as my qualifier for a star. There's maybe 5 of those guys in the NBA. Kyrie will be the best player on the Celtics and I think they've got a real shot at going to the finals.

I don't see Boston as built for Kyrie. Do you? And I can easily see Hayward as being the best player for them next year. I guess we will see.

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Indy wrote: I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Take Lebron off the team, and they might have a real coach.

I'm glad we didn't give up a lot to get Kyrie, but he does make sense for Boston, who will be right back in the conference finals with a great chance to unseat the Cavs.

Also, those in glass houses...

Zing!

And, yeah, I agree that the Cavs are still the favorite this season. But the Celts have a much better crack at them this year than last, and the Celts are the defacto favorites to own the east if Lebron leaves the Cavs next year.

That I agree with, but I would have said that regardless of if they traded for Kyrie. The way I see it, it all comes down to what it was worth to the Celts to maintain their current level of play once Lebron leaves, without having to max out anyone else (after Gordon). This trade really just buys them one extra year of IT-like offensive performance without having to pay IT after next year. They are kicking the can down the road one extra year, hoping they can be in the Finals Kyrie's last year of this contract with Lebron gone from the East. And that plan is fine. But they paid a big price to do that.

Agree with that.

Indy wrote:

Split T wrote:

Indy wrote:

Sunsfan4life wrote:

Split T wrote:Key word is potential. That pick could end up 8th or it could end up first and they could draft the next M****** B******. Kyrie is a legit star right at the beginning of his prime. He's worth a lot more than be a possible top 5 pick.

Is he a legit start though? Can he be the best player on a championship team? Should be interesting.

I can't see it. Take Lebron off the Cavs last year and see what happens. They likely aren't a top 10 team in the league.

Well that team was built for LeBron. Build one around Kyrie and it might be different. I also don't use best player on a championship team as my qualifier for a star. There's maybe 5 of those guys in the NBA. Kyrie will be the best player on the Celtics and I think they've got a real shot at going to the finals.

I don't see Boston as built for Kyrie. Do you? And I can easily see Hayward as being the best player for them next year. I guess we will see.

It was built pretty well for IT and Kyrie is very similar offensively. Avery Bradley would have been nice alongside Kyrie, but Smart will be good too. I think having other play makers is key, both Hayward and horford are good passers and can create for themselves.. They can also both play without the ball.

In Cleveland, you had a bunch of older vets who were pretty dependent on LeBron creating for them (Frye, Jefferson, Smith, Thompson) Kyrie isn't much of a playmaker and those guys became pretty useless without LeBron on the court.

I really think Hayward and Kyrie are a good fit. Both are probably ideally your 2nd best player, but their strengths/weaknesses seem to align. Hayward is a very good all around player who can create for others, spot up, create his own shot, and defend. But he's not really a feature scorer. That's exactly what Kyrie is. I think you'll see them play together similar to how LeBron and Kyrie played together, with maybe some more responsibility given to Kyrie.

This current string of post, makes me realize that there is no winner here, is a lose-lose trade.

The Cavs after this, are formally recognizing that This Is The Last Year, and that itself is a bad side history to start with. Lebron will be in PR damage control and Isaiah will struggle to adjust like he did here, because he knows Lebron is leaving and he is not getting resigned there, so you will have him in a Me-first mode. They got the pick, a huge win, but that only remarks the "back to the drawing table" mindset, they are not closing the gap with the Warriors after this trade, they are surrendering to it. I once told that we would see what the FO would prioritize, and is clear they are prioritizing the post-Lebron era while Bledsoe+Warren+MiaPick would have been the other way. Today this trade looks good, but a year from now, that just-freshly-drafted kid will be all they will have to show for this, because Crowder and Zizic will be on the trading block, with just about everybody else on that overpaid roster, they are expendable. It is no coincidence that both Lebron and Thomas are on their last year.

And Boston is likely to be a lot better, but not because of Kyrie, but because Stevens had been gifted with his man Hayward, whom I think is already featured in a big chapter of the playing book, and a full year after the Horford signing. These two teams really portrayed last year how big is the difference between a meh coach and an elite one; and it will get worse, once Lue fails into summoning Celtic-Thomas into the court, and Stevens puts Irving on sets that feature the best of him and hide the worse. But all this is on Stevens, not on Kyrie, they just reload the role Thomas was playing, and avoided to be cornered into maxim him out next year, but they did it on a price tag THREE times bigger, and surrendering a premium asset, if this were Phoenix, it would be #Lakers_Pick_Drama in the .Net Valley all over again. And if Irving leaves them after two years...

Both teams are saving face today because of the Names involved int the deal and the Media is helping them out big time on this, but neither team is clearly better because of it, and once the ping pong balls drop on this pick, on of the two sides is going to scream in pain (my guess, is that it will be Cleveland), and still, the non-screaming side would have little to celebrate.

Although I think he is clearly going to leave, I don't think this move means the Cavs are recognizing this. They moved a player that didn't mesh well with Lebron, got back much more than equal value, and set up themselves whether he leaves or not.

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:This current string of post, makes me realize that there is no winner here, is a lose-lose trade.

The Cavs after this, are formally recognizing that This Is The Last Year, and that itself is a bad side history to start with. Lebron will be in PR damage control and Isaiah will struggle to adjust like he did here, because he knows Lebron is leaving and he is not getting resigned there, so you will have him in a Me-first mode. They got the pick, a huge win, but that only remarks the "back to the drawing table" mindset, they are not closing the gap with the Warriors after this trade, they are surrendering to it. I once told that we would see what the FO would prioritize, and is clear they are prioritizing the post-Lebron era while Bledsoe+Warren+MiaPick would have been the other way. Today this trade looks good, but a year from now, that just-freshly-drafted kid will be all they will have to show for this, because Crowder and Zizic will be on the trading block, with just about everybody else on that overpaid roster, they are expendable. It is no coincidence that both Lebron and Thomas are on their last year.

And Boston is likely to be a lot better, but not because of Kyrie, but because Stevens had been gifted with his man Hayward, whom I think is already featured in a big chapter of the playing book, and a full year after the Horford signing. These two teams really portrayed last year how big is the difference between a meh coach and an elite one; and it will get worse, once Lue fails into summoning Celtic-Thomas into the court, and Stevens puts Irving on sets that feature the best of him and hide the worse. But all this is on Stevens, not on Kyrie, they just reload the role Thomas was playing, and avoided to be cornered into maxim him out next year, but they did it on a price tag THREE times bigger, and surrendering a premium asset, if this were Phoenix, it would be #Lakers_Pick_Drama in the .Net Valley all over again. And if Irving leaves them after two years...

Both teams are saving face today because of the Names involved int the deal and the Media is helping them out big time on this, but neither team is clearly better because of it, and once the ping pong balls drop on this pick, on of the two sides is going to scream in pain (my guess, is that it will be Cleveland), and still, the non-screaming side would have little to celebrate.

Agreed. As of right now, neither team is demonstrably better.

But to you comment on the pick, even if it ends up as low as #8, you think Cleveland would count that as a loss?

I wonder if the Cavs would turn around and trade that #1 pick for someone else? I'm not sure what the trade rules would be like, but would they trade a bad contract and the pick for someone like Bledsoe? It would be funny to see IT and Bledsoe on the same team again.

Or from a non-Suns perspective, would NY give them KP for the pick?

I think it is a possibility the Cavs use the pick to get someone else. The main reason it is being speculated Bron will leave is because of how much money is tied up (lil flexibility) and zero assets to acquire anyone. I read the 3 players contracts is less than Kyrie was on the books for this season and now they have a big trade piece which is my issue with the C's. If Ainge master plan was to have his team ready to take over when Bron leaves (no issue with Kyrie-Hayward-Stevens mix) but to me you just gave Cavs a glimmer of hope they can work something else out to get Bron to stay two more years instead of C's looking at being the big dog out East from 18-19

I'm relieved the Celtics finally gave up some of their treasure trove. I think we now have the best collection of assets in the league.

To me a "star" is a guy who you know is going to be on the All-Star team every year. Kyrie Irving is one of those. Thomas is one of those too now. Joe Johnson is pretty typical for what I would say a guy need to be to reach "star" status.

A susperstar is a guy, who if he's the best player on your team, can make you serous contenders for the NBA championship (with other quality players of course). James, Durant and Curry, obviously; Harden and Westbrook maybe. Anthony Davis may turn out to be one. These are your players like Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, etc. If you're fortunate, you have one, if you're really fortunate you have Kareem & Magic or Kobe & Shaq or Curry & Durant. These guys don't get paired up very often, and in the Suns' 50 years, I think Barkley is the only one they've had. You can win a championship without a superstar, but they having one sure makes it easier for you.

That said, I think Boston paid like they were getting a superstar, and while Irving is very good, and still young, he's not at that level.