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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:14 am
by 3rdside
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:05 pm
Moving on ... From Evan Sidery on Twitter:
Suns are projected to have $10.7 million in cap space if they do all of the following:
- Keep cap holds on Saric, Carter
- Renounce Baynes
- Decline options on Kaminsky, Diallo
- Waive Okobo
Phoenix will not be in a position to pursue bigger names unless Saric is not re-signed.
I'm not a cap expert so read this with caution, but from what I can tell Baynes has a $10.4m hold, so if we keep him by signing him for that, or less, and sign our rookie then we'll be over the cap by more or less whatever the rookie contract is?
If so, I say we're set at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 with the emergence of Johnson at 4 but could do with a talent upgrade at 1 and 4, with the 4 the more pressing issue however a back up 2 may be the most pressing issue of all.
So on the basis of the Ayton's suspension, Baynes's moments and bubble performance I could be convinced to stick with what we've got + a rookie 2 rather than make any marginal or expensive moves.
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
I mean set for this season .. and you're not going to get 5 above average players on one team.
Maybe my message has been lost so I'll say it again .. "stability and growth" .. so no marginal moves, or expensive moves unless it's a no brainer.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:03 am
by In2ition
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:55 pm
You can't use cap space and the MLE.
Are you sure this is the case? I thought this was the case too, but for some reason I think it may have changed. The Suns had cap space last year to sign Rubio and then signed Kaminisky with a portion of the MLE if I'm not mistaken. I guess I've seen a lot of articles(although they could be wrong) that claims they could have their MLE along with cap space.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
by Split T
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
by In2ition
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'm curious, how much is the tax payer exception?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:21 am
by Split T
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'm curious, how much is the tax payer exception?
I believe it’s just slightly more than the room exception(maybe 6 million) and can be for 3 years. Full mid level is between 9-10 and for 4 years.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:23 am
by Indy
3rdside wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:14 am
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:05 pm
Moving on ... From Evan Sidery on Twitter:
Suns are projected to have $10.7 million in cap space if they do all of the following:
- Keep cap holds on Saric, Carter
- Renounce Baynes
- Decline options on Kaminsky, Diallo
- Waive Okobo
Phoenix will not be in a position to pursue bigger names unless Saric is not re-signed.
I'm not a cap expert so read this with caution, but from what I can tell Baynes has a $10.4m hold, so if we keep him by signing him for that, or less, and sign our rookie then we'll be over the cap by more or less whatever the rookie contract is?
If so, I say we're set at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 with the emergence of Johnson at 4 but could do with a talent upgrade at 1 and 4, with the 4 the more pressing issue however a back up 2 may be the most pressing issue of all.
So on the basis of the Ayton's suspension, Baynes's moments and bubble performance I could be convinced to stick with what we've got + a rookie 2 rather than make any marginal or expensive moves.
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
I mean set for this season .. and you're not going to get 5 above average players on one team.
Maybe my message has been lost so I'll say it again .. "stability and growth" .. so no marginal moves, or expensive moves unless it's a no brainer.
Agreed it isn't likely, but as a whole you want your team to be better than average (only way to even make the playoffs, much less get to round 2). If you only have 1-2 above average players in your starting 5, it makes it really hard to beat most teams on most nights.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:26 am
by Indy
Cap wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:02 am
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:05 pm
Moving on ... From Evan Sidery on Twitter:
Suns are projected to have $10.7 million in cap space if they do all of the following:
- Keep cap holds on Saric, Carter
- Renounce Baynes
- Decline options on Kaminsky, Diallo
- Waive Okobo
Phoenix will not be in a position to pursue bigger names unless Saric is not re-signed.
I'm not a cap expert so read this with caution, but from what I can tell Baynes has a $10.4m hold, so if we keep him by signing him for that, or less, and sign our rookie then we'll be over the cap by more or less whatever the rookie contract is?
If so, I say we're set at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 with the emergence of Johnson at 4 but could do with a talent upgrade at 1 and 4, with the 4 the more pressing issue however a back up 2 may be the most pressing issue of all.
So on the basis of the Ayton's suspension, Baynes's moments and bubble performance I could be convinced to stick with what we've got + a rookie 2 rather than make any marginal or expensive moves.
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
Long run, or now?
A bit of both. Because some are on their way up (we hope) and some are on their way down. I expect Mikal to be an above average started in this league--but he has a long way to go on offense. If we can get 3 above average starters, with one being a superstar and the other 2 starters being average, we should be in good shape. (Then we need to focus on depth.)
As for Cam, he was good in the bubble. I am not sure I can say I expect him to be an above average starting PF in this league. That would be amazing, but I think that is a +90th percentile outcome for him.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:36 am
by In2ition
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:21 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'm curious, how much is the tax payer exception?
I believe it’s just slightly more than the room exception(maybe 6 million) and can be for 3 years. Full mid level is between 9-10 and for 4 years.
Could you have the MLE and the tax payer exception at the same time?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:38 am
by Mori Chu
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
That is an interesting question, and you may be right about your count of 2. But I would ask that same question of other teams as well, even contenders.
How many above average NBA starters do the Lakers have? 2? Lebron and Davis?
How about the Clippers? Maybe 3?
Nuggets? Sixers? Bucks? I think a lot of teams hover in the 2-3 range depending on how you want to argue it.
It's not so much that you need 5 "above average" starters, more that the other non-stars need to be really good at playing their roles. In that way I think guys like Bridges and Rubio are great for rounding out a starting lineup, because they excellently play the role given to them (3-and-D, or running the offense / passing, respectively).
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:40 am
by In2ition
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:38 am
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
That is an interesting question, and you may be right about your count of 2. But I would ask that same question of other teams as well, even contenders.
How many above average NBA starters do the Lakers have? 2? Lebron and Davis?
How about the Clippers? Maybe 3?
Nuggets? Sixers? Bucks? I think a lot of teams hover in the 2-3 range depending on how you want to argue it.
It's not so much that you need 5 "above average" starters, more that the other non-stars need to be really good at playing their roles. In that way I think guys like Bridges and Rubio are great for rounding out a starting lineup, because they excellently play the role given to them (3-and-D, or running the offense / passing, respectively).
How do you measure being above average? Do you use PER and anyone in the starting lineup with a PER over 15(average)?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:58 am
by Split T
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:36 am
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:21 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 am
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'm curious, how much is the tax payer exception?
I believe it’s just slightly more than the room exception(maybe 6 million) and can be for 3 years. Full mid level is between 9-10 and for 4 years.
Could you have the MLE and the tax payer exception at the same time?
No, tax payer exception is just the reduced MLE for teams paying the luxury tax. It’s one or the other.
So, under the cap = room exception
Over the cap, under luxury tax = full MLE
Over the luxury tax = tax payer exception
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:00 am
by Split T
So depending on how we play it, we can either retain everyone, be over the cap, and have the full MLE. We can renounce everyone and have like 19ish million in cap space, plus room exception(can’t add them together though). Or we can retain some players(Saric/Carter) have about 10 million in cap space, and also have the room exception.
I prefer the last option. Gives us slightly over the MLE to go outbid all the teams using the MLE. Plus we retain our bubble squad and add 1-2 FA’s, Oubre, and a draft pick.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:07 am
by Superbone
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:24 am
FVV has 30 & 11 on 8-10 3s tonight.
My personal assessment is that y’all fools trippin on some good acid if you think Rubio is better now or for the future next to Booker.
And you're trippin if you think we can just go out and get him.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:09 am
by Superbone
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:06 am
There are three different mid level exceptions. The full exception, the tax payer exception, and the room exception. If you use cap space, you get the room exception. It’s roughly a starting salary of 5 million for a max of 2 years
So, you're saying it's possible that they aren't reading the room right?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:10 am
by specialsauce
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:07 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:24 am
FVV has 30 & 11 on 8-10 3s tonight.
My personal assessment is that y’all fools trippin on some good acid if you think Rubio is better now or for the future next to Booker.
And you're trippin if you think we can just go out and get him.
You’re right why even try? We’re losers. Always have been always will be. Love the spirit
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:11 am
by Superbone
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:23 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:14 am
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:59 am
3rdside wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:05 pm
Moving on ... From Evan Sidery on Twitter:
Suns are projected to have $10.7 million in cap space if they do all of the following:
- Keep cap holds on Saric, Carter
- Renounce Baynes
- Decline options on Kaminsky, Diallo
- Waive Okobo
Phoenix will not be in a position to pursue bigger names unless Saric is not re-signed.
I'm not a cap expert so read this with caution, but from what I can tell Baynes has a $10.4m hold, so if we keep him by signing him for that, or less, and sign our rookie then we'll be over the cap by more or less whatever the rookie contract is?
If so, I say we're set at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 with the emergence of Johnson at 4 but could do with a talent upgrade at 1 and 4, with the 4 the more pressing issue however a back up 2 may be the most pressing issue of all.
So on the basis of the Ayton's suspension, Baynes's moments and bubble performance I could be convinced to stick with what we've got + a rookie 2 rather than make any marginal or expensive moves.
How many of our starting 5 are above average NBA starters? I count 2.
I mean set for this season .. and you're not going to get 5 above average players on one team.
Maybe my message has been lost so I'll say it again .. "stability and growth" .. so no marginal moves, or expensive moves unless it's a no brainer.
Agreed it isn't likely, but as a whole you want your team to be better than average (only way to even make the playoffs, much less get to round 2). If you only have 1-2 above average players in your starting 5, it makes it really hard to beat most teams on most nights.
You mean like the Lakers?
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:13 am
by Superbone
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:10 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:07 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:24 am
FVV has 30 & 11 on 8-10 3s tonight.
My personal assessment is that y’all fools trippin on some good acid if you think Rubio is better now or for the future next to Booker.
And you're trippin if you think we can just go out and get him.
You’re right why even try? We’re losers. Always have been always will be. Love the spirit
Yeah, let's get LeBron and Durant while we're at it.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:19 am
by specialsauce
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:13 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:10 am
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:07 am
specialsauce wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:24 am
FVV has 30 & 11 on 8-10 3s tonight.
My personal assessment is that y’all fools trippin on some good acid if you think Rubio is better now or for the future next to Booker.
And you're trippin if you think we can just go out and get him.
You’re right why even try? We’re losers. Always have been always will be. Love the spirit
Yeah, let's get LeBron and Durant while we're at it.
So you admit FVV is way better then? You just referenced LBJ and KD as a comparison to chasing for him, which is silly.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:25 am
by Split T
I’d give VanVleet a call, in fact I’m sure if we’ve had thoughts of pursuing him at all, we’ve had communication with his agent and may have some understanding of his intentions. I just don’t really see why he would leave his current situation. He’s got a pretty significant role on a title contender. I guess if Toronto doesn’t want to pay him, but I don’t really see that happening either.
I do think he’d be an upgrade over Rubio, but he’s not worth preemptively moving Rubio for. Unless through his agent we’ve discovered he loves PHX and wants to come play here.
Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:33 am
by In2ition
So you could be so far over the luxury tax that you are paying crazy amount for every dollar, but still be able to essentially have more money/space than someone that is .5 million under the cap?