Phx-Suns.Net

specialsauce wrote:A top 5 pick should be a franchise player. None of those players are remotely worth building a team around. They are decent role players, aka mid-first round talent.

If you think a top 5 pick automatically grants you a franchise player you have not been following the draft in the last decade. Gobert would go top 10 and likely top 5 if '13 was redrafted today.

Wade, cousins, love, jrich, Rubio, Valuncinas, jeff green, mike miller, Felton, Devon Harris, exum, Len, Thomas Robinson, Sheldon williams, tskitishvili.

Those are the #5 picks since 2000. 2.5 franchise players, 3 good starters, 4 role players, 3 busts, and 2 yet to be determined.

Foreign big men to be drafted top 10 overall since year 2000:

Andrea Bargnani
Yao Ming
Darko Milicic
Enes Kanter
Pau Gasol
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Jan Vesely
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Bismack Biyombo
Desagana Diop
Mouhamed Sene


None of these players have panned out as franchise players, whether for health or other reasons, Pau being closest.

Yeah, you miss at #5, but historically drafting a foreign big man without collegiate experience top 10 does NOT net you a franchise player. Isn't the purpose of trading into the top 10 so that you have a chance to get a cornerstone of your franchise? I'd rather take a chance on somebody who has seen division 1 competition and coaching than draft from a pool of players that have NEVER proven worthy.

Dude, Yao absolutely was a franchise player. His time was definitely cut short by injures but he was a beast. Pau Gasol may be one of the most skilled big men to play in the last 20 years. I feel like you're underselling some of these guys to prove your point. Yes, I'd say Euro bigs are risky if you're looking for a franchise guy. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Who drafted Sene? Man, dunno on that one...

So you got one definite cornerstone (Pau) and one maybe (Yao). I don't consider Yao because of injuries. After his first 3 years, he only played in half the games until he had to retire. But I can see where you're coming from with him.

2 players who didn't play college ball in the US that panned out as franchise players in 15 years. Not a good bet in my book.

Who drafted Sene? Man, dunno on that one...

carey wrote:Dude, Yao absolutely was a franchise player. His time was definitely cut short by injures but he was a beast. Pau Gasol may be one of the most skilled big men to play in the last 20 years. I feel like you're underselling some of these guys to prove your point. Yes, I'd say Euro bigs are risky if you're looking for a franchise guy. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Who drafted Sene? Man, dunno on that one...

Did you know the Suns offered the Sonics 3 first round picks so they could draft Sene and were rejected?

So am I to assume the success rate of American bigs is better? It's probably not, but it's much easier to write off the euros because there's a smaller sample size.

Shabazz wrote:

carey wrote:Dude, Yao absolutely was a franchise player. His time was definitely cut short by injures but he was a beast. Pau Gasol may be one of the most skilled big men to play in the last 20 years. I feel like you're underselling some of these guys to prove your point. Yes, I'd say Euro bigs are risky if you're looking for a franchise guy. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Who drafted Sene? Man, dunno on that one...

Did you know the Suns offered the Sonics 3 first round picks so they could draft Sene and were rejected?

Ew.

specialsauce wrote:Foreign big men to be drafted top 10 overall since year 2000:

Andrea Bargnani
Yao Ming
Darko Milicic
Enes Kanter
Pau Gasol
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Jan Vesely
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Bismack Biyombo
Desagana Diop
Mouhamed Sene


None of these players have panned out as franchise players, whether for health or other reasons, Pau being closest.

Yeah, you miss at #5, but historically drafting a foreign big man without collegiate experience top 10 does NOT net you a franchise player. Isn't the purpose of trading into the top 10 so that you have a chance to get a cornerstone of your franchise? I'd rather take a chance on somebody who has seen division 1 competition and coaching than draft from a pool of players that have NEVER proven worthy.

I think diop was playing highschool ball in the states when he was drafted, which doesn't change a whole lot, highschool players were risky too. Also Valuncinas hasn't been a star yet, but he's still young and been pretty good.

So there have been quite a few busts but I'd argue the situation with Portzingis is different. Scouts had never seen guys like darko or tskitishvili or yI play against any kind of decent competition. They were all 18 year old's in foreign countries who dominated low quality opponents/chairs in yi's case. They were all drafted because they were super young, super tall, and could run around on a basketball court and not look awkward.

Portzingis isn't some unknown. He played in the second most competitive basketball league in the world as a 19 year old and actually played well. He played tougher teams than towns and okafor did this last year. Now there is always risk involved, greg oden was about as can't miss as you can get and he still missed, but I don't think Portzingis is any riskier than the other top 5 guys. I'd strongly consider taking him 2nd after Towns. Russell is the other guy in my top 3

TheOriginalOriginal wrote:So am I to assume the success rate of American bigs is better? It's probably not, but it's much easier to write off the euros because there's a smaller sample size.

Drew Gooden, Chris Wilcox, amare, bosh, mike sweetney, Chris kaman, dwight, emeka okafor, Rafa arujao and Andrew bogut(both played college in US), frye, Diogu, Bynum, Aldridge, tyrus Thomas, Johnny o'bryant, greg oden, Al horford, Joachim noah, Brandon wright, spencer hawes, Beasley, Kevin love, brook Lopez, blake Griffin, Hasheem thabeet, jordan hill, Derrick favors, Demarcus cousins, ekpe udoh, Greg monroe, Tristan Thompson, anthony Davis, thomas Robinson, Andre Drummond

We'll call that 10 franchise players, 11 busts, and 14 somewhere in between

The internationals had 2 franchise players, 6 busts, and 6 somewhere in between (I added nene)

So chances are better with american bigs, but not overwhelmingly better

Porzingis is going to be a stud, although it might be a couple of years till that statement is vindicated.

I would be more than comfortable with taking a flyer on Porzingis

Me too. Yeah it's a risk, but so is every pick in this draft.

I feel like whoever created this wasn't allowed to actually make it like too many cooks. I would have enjoyed watching them run from a crazed madman.

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p.s. I can't seem to get my youtube videos to show up correctly when I use the tag. Anyone having that problem? I've tried using the entire URL or just the code.

Bobby Portis is my guy. I like his length, energy, rebounding and ability to block shots. 6-11, 250 with a 7-2 wingspan can give us a long frontline with Len. He may not be the best athlete, but he doesn't have to be at that size. I also like that he's an energy guy but still has offensive skills. Usually hustle guys have to hustle because they can't do anything offensively outside of 6 ft (Faried, Acy, Plumlee, Gibson). If Portis can be a hustle guy, rebounder, run the floor in transition and still pop out and shoot, that's a pretty solid combo.

Yea we can do alot worse then Portis. Good work ethic too. I like what I saw from him when he played Kentucky, struggled a bit vs their length, but kept attacking and wasn't detired. I've seen a few comparisons to Kieff, Who do you compare his game too Shel?

carey wrote:I feel like whoever created this wasn't allowed to actually make it like too many cooks. I would have enjoyed watching them run from a crazed madman.



p.s. I can't seem to get my youtube videos to show up correctly when I use the tag. Anyone having that problem? I've tried using the entire URL or just the code.

Considering the youtube links:

a) Use the youtube button on the very right of the formatting bar

b) Remove everything in the URL that youtube adds before or after the code. So that in the end you only have something like between the two youtube tags.



[youtube][/youtube]

I hope this helps ...

Seems he's similar offensively to Keiff but more length and hustle. Tough to compare...poor man's KG from a physical and perimeter offense standpoint. Not nearly as polished in the post and probably won't be the defender he was.

NY reporters are saying if Russell isn't there at 4, the Bledsoe trade is likely. Makes too much sense not to happen but I still think it depends on who's there at 13 that the Knicks want. Kaminsky may be gone, would they want Turner?

If we get 4, I'd be OK with Winslow. Commit to Knight, throw Winslow in the backcourt for a traditional look and lineup.

ShelC wrote:NY reporters are saying if Russell isn't there at 4, the Bledsoe trade is likely. Makes too much sense not to happen but I still think it depends on who's there at 13 that the Knicks want. Kaminsky may be gone, would they want Turner?

If we get 4, I'd be OK with Winslow. Commit to Knight, throw Winslow in the backcourt for a traditional look and lineup.

If we are selling a 25 year old borderline all-star; I'm not doing it for Winslow. I'm doing it to get a potential home run.

I think Winslow is a very safe pick, but I'd rather take a Muiday or Porzingis and get a potential face of the franchise guy. I look at Winslow more like a Kidd-Gilchrist, Oladipo, Iguadala mold. Obviously a better shooter coming out than MCG, but I don't think he's a top-tier player.