Around the League: The Off-season

[Superbone]

Of course is the ideal pairing, but I think he is someone who answers your question. Somebody was talking about trading Ayton for AD, combining Booker AD here and Zion-Ayton- Jrue over there, but I think New Orleans would prefer the other way around. Also talks about how keeping Zion and trading AD resets the expectations over there got me thinking about the same in Phoenix.

True, booker might help them more than Zion, but I don’t think they could acquire him. Don’t think we’d do it. I’d rank Zion ahead of booker in value, but it’s a total reset on our roster and we’d probably have to wait even longer to get good perimeter talent.

I think every GM in the league would be happy to trade Booker for Zion except ours.

With our roster? I’m not sure that’s the case. I’m not saying it would be a bad deal...we’d come out ahead talent wise, but we’d be starting over again. I don’t think this team is very far away from being good. Another good ball handler would go a long way...trading booker for Zion leaves you two ball handlers short. Also not really sure what Ayton would do, I don’t love the fit between those two. And I think other GM’s would feel similar, but maybe I’m wrong.

We’d be starting over again, but we’d be starting over with Zion-Ayton, which is a good start to starting over and buys us time.

I know we’re all sick of rebuilding, but that doesn’t mean we can just decide that the rebuilding is over and we’ve built something special. We haven’t. No matter how long rebuilding takes, you’ve got to keep doing it until it succeeds. You can’t just declare the process over.

I'm not interested in buying time. Keep moving forward with what we've already built. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep resetting. I don't care about words, just actions. Let's go! Embrace Booker. He is ours and wants to be here. Let's look forward, not backward.

[In2ition]

Yeah, I'm not looking to trade Booker. I don't get wanting to reset again. I don't see us being that far away as others do.
1. Find a PG
2. Fill the hole at PF.
3. Sign youngish vets to fill out the bench.

Is that too many things to do this off-season?

[Mori Chu]

I think you only ever trade Booker if he demands it, and only then if you have sat down with the guy and done absolutely everything you can to talk him out of it. He's an imperfect player (especially on defense) but he's our guy and we should want him to retire a Sun.

[Indy]

I think you only ever trade Booker if he demands it, and only then if you have sat down with the guy and done absolutely everything you can to talk him out of it. He's an imperfect player (especially on defense) but he's our guy and we should want him to retire a Sun.

In general, Suns fans (like all fans of their team) greatly over value their favorite players.

And right now I completely agree with wanting to keep him, keep him happy, and put people around him to help him (and the team) succeed. But it might make sense to trade anyone at any time to make the team better.

[Cap]

True, booker might help them more than Zion, but I don’t think they could acquire him. Don’t think we’d do it. I’d rank Zion ahead of booker in value, but it’s a total reset on our roster and we’d probably have to wait even longer to get good perimeter talent.

I think every GM in the league would be happy to trade Booker for Zion except ours.

With our roster? I’m not sure that’s the case. I’m not saying it would be a bad deal...we’d come out ahead talent wise, but we’d be starting over again. I don’t think this team is very far away from being good. Another good ball handler would go a long way...trading booker for Zion leaves you two ball handlers short. Also not really sure what Ayton would do, I don’t love the fit between those two. And I think other GM’s would feel similar, but maybe I’m wrong.

We’d be starting over again, but we’d be starting over with Zion-Ayton, which is a good start to starting over and buys us time.

I know we’re all sick of rebuilding, but that doesn’t mean we can just decide that the rebuilding is over and we’ve built something special. We haven’t. No matter how long rebuilding takes, you’ve got to keep doing it until it succeeds. You can’t just declare the process over.

I'm not interested in buying time. Keep moving forward with what we've already built. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep resetting. I don't care about words, just actions. Let's go! Embrace Booker. He is ours and wants to be here. Let's look forward, not backward.

You can resetting until you get it right, or you can act like you’ve gotten it right when you haven’t, with predictable results.

We can give the new FO and coach a chance to rebuild, or we can tell them to roll with what McD/Watson/Kokoskov built. Of course, if that were anything we can win with, those guys would still be here.

Like Indy points out, there have already been a couple of times when we’ve decided we’ve been rebuilding long enough, and it’s time to win. That hasn’t worked out well.

It doesn’t matter how sick and tired you are of rebuilding, all that matters is what you’ve built.

Does anyone seriously think we’re going to surround Booker and Ayton with complementary players and win a championship with those guys as 1-2? We haven’t built a damn thing. Booker’s getting expensive and showing signs of impatience. We get a much longer window with Zion.

[Indy]

We have a huge talent problem. Booker is far and away the best player on our team. If you go to our 2nd best player (I am not even sure who that is because we have so many people about the same level), they would struggle to be a 3rd best player on any team that made it out of the first round of the playoffs this year.

I am not advocating trading Book for Zion (and even if I did, there is no way NO would do it). But we need to find a way to add a player that is challenging Booker as best player on the floor *some* nights, and not just because Book is having a bad game.

[In2ition]

Does anyone seriously think we’re going to surround Booker and Ayton with complementary players and win a championship with those guys as 1-2? We haven’t built a damn thing. Booker’s getting expensive and showing signs of impatience. We get a much longer window with Zion.

It shouldn't be quite that hard, but maybe it is, maybe I'm naive. I think a player like Brandon Clarke is a good piece that compliments Ayton and Booker. I think that Bridges compliments both Ayton and Booker too. Oubre is a good player next to them and so is Holmes off the bench. They need a PG, and hopefully they can land a player like Lonzo, who would compliment both Booker and Ayton too. Thaddeus Young would be a good piece at PF, not great but good and valuable. None of those moves would take trading away the farm to complete. They still could have enough salary, picks and players to still make a big move with(depending on how much it would take to get Lonzo).

[Drewsprocket]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

[Indy]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

I am sure they want to re-sign him, but...

They have 95M on the books for next year for only 9 guys (assuming Middleton opts out). Here are their big FAs.

Lopez has been HUGE for them in the playoffs. I assume they see him as a big part of their team, and will try and re-sign him. With his complete change in his game, I assume he can get at least a 2yr/20M contract.

Middleton they have to keep. He was an all-star this year and does a bit of everything for them. Is that a 15M/year deal, or more? He is slated to make 13M next year, but has a player option. I think he has to exercise it and cash in with a long-term contract.

Mirotic hasn't been there long, so I can see them letting him sign some where else.

Brogdon: You already talked about his positives, but the did already give Bledsoe an extension at around 17M/year, and Brogdon plays a combo 1/2 and they might not have enough the appetite to pay him with the other guys above needing a contract too. If they spend the 25/year on those two guys above, they are back to 110M, not counting for any other signings. do they go up to 125-130M just to sign him?

I would go after him at midnight if you have any indication he might sign.

[Superbone]

Does anyone seriously think we’re going to surround Booker and Ayton with complementary players and win a championship with those guys as 1-2? We haven’t built a damn thing. Booker’s getting expensive and showing signs of impatience. We get a much longer window with Zion.

Yes! But it's not going to happen overnight and we need to continue to add complementary players. I'm hoping Oubre Jr. and Bridges are two of those and we already have those (if we want to pay Oubre). Keep building not resetting. Absolutely.

[Split T]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

I am sure they want to re-sign him, but...

They have 95M on the books for next year for only 9 guys (assuming Middleton opts out). Here are their big FAs.

Lopez has been HUGE for them in the playoffs. I assume they see him as a big part of their team, and will try and re-sign him. With his complete change in his game, I assume he can get at least a 2yr/20M contract.

Middleton they have to keep. He was an all-star this year and does a bit of everything for them. Is that a 15M/year deal, or more? He is slated to make 13M next year, but has a player option. I think he has to exercise it and cash in with a long-term contract.

Mirotic hasn't been there long, so I can see them letting him sign some where else.

Brogdon: You already talked about his positives, but the did already give Bledsoe an extension at around 17M/year, and Brogdon plays a combo 1/2 and they might not have enough the appetite to pay him with the other guys above needing a contract too. If they spend the 25/year on those two guys above, they are back to 110M, not counting for any other signings. do they go up to 125-130M just to sign him?

I would go after him at midnight if you have any indication he might sign.

George Hill isn’t guaranteed, so that clears 17 million. Puts them around 75 million

[Indy]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

I am sure they want to re-sign him, but...

They have 95M on the books for next year for only 9 guys (assuming Middleton opts out). Here are their big FAs.

Lopez has been HUGE for them in the playoffs. I assume they see him as a big part of their team, and will try and re-sign him. With his complete change in his game, I assume he can get at least a 2yr/20M contract.

Middleton they have to keep. He was an all-star this year and does a bit of everything for them. Is that a 15M/year deal, or more? He is slated to make 13M next year, but has a player option. I think he has to exercise it and cash in with a long-term contract.

Mirotic hasn't been there long, so I can see them letting him sign some where else.

Brogdon: You already talked about his positives, but the did already give Bledsoe an extension at around 17M/year, and Brogdon plays a combo 1/2 and they might not have enough the appetite to pay him with the other guys above needing a contract too. If they spend the 25/year on those two guys above, they are back to 110M, not counting for any other signings. do they go up to 125-130M just to sign him?

I would go after him at midnight if you have any indication he might sign.

George Hill isn’t guaranteed, so that clears 17 million. Puts them around 75 million

Is this wrong? https://www.spotrac.com/nba/milwaukee-bucks/cap/2019/

It shows Hill as non-guaranteed, but also shows them with a practical cap space of only 5M, with 135M in cap allocations.

[Shabazz]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

On the 7SOL podcast they threw out an interesting trade: Josh Jackson and #6 for Spencer Dinwiddie and #17. I'd hit that.

[Split T]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

I am sure they want to re-sign him, but...

They have 95M on the books for next year for only 9 guys (assuming Middleton opts out). Here are their big FAs.

Lopez has been HUGE for them in the playoffs. I assume they see him as a big part of their team, and will try and re-sign him. With his complete change in his game, I assume he can get at least a 2yr/20M contract.

Middleton they have to keep. He was an all-star this year and does a bit of everything for them. Is that a 15M/year deal, or more? He is slated to make 13M next year, but has a player option. I think he has to exercise it and cash in with a long-term contract.

Mirotic hasn't been there long, so I can see them letting him sign some where else.

Brogdon: You already talked about his positives, but the did already give Bledsoe an extension at around 17M/year, and Brogdon plays a combo 1/2 and they might not have enough the appetite to pay him with the other guys above needing a contract too. If they spend the 25/year on those two guys above, they are back to 110M, not counting for any other signings. do they go up to 125-130M just to sign him?

I would go after him at midnight if you have any indication he might sign.

George Hill isn’t guaranteed, so that clears 17 million. Puts them around 75 million

Is this wrong? https://www.spotrac.com/nba/milwaukee-bucks/cap/2019/

It shows Hill as non-guaranteed, but also shows them with a practical cap space of only 5M, with 135M in cap allocations.

Hill’s 18 million and Middleton’s player option are counting towards that 100 million in salary. Take those off...add the dead money and they’re a little over 70 million committed. So they’ve got 60ish million of room before they hit the luxury tax. Should get them Brogdon/Middleton/Lopez no problem. Mirotic could move on.

[Superbone]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

On the 7SOL podcast they threw out an interesting trade: Josh Jackson and #6 for Spencer Dinwiddie and #17. I'd hit that.

That's an easy yes on our end.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I think every GM in the league would be happy to trade Booker for Zion except ours.

With our roster? I’m not sure that’s the case. I’m not saying it would be a bad deal...we’d come out ahead talent wise, but we’d be starting over again. I don’t think this team is very far away from being good. Another good ball handler would go a long way...trading booker for Zion leaves you two ball handlers short. Also not really sure what Ayton would do, I don’t love the fit between those two. And I think other GM’s would feel similar, but maybe I’m wrong.

We’d be starting over again, but we’d be starting over with Zion-Ayton, which is a good start to starting over and buys us time.

I know we’re all sick of rebuilding, but that doesn’t mean we can just decide that the rebuilding is over and we’ve built something special. We haven’t. No matter how long rebuilding takes, you’ve got to keep doing it until it succeeds. You can’t just declare the process over.

I'm not interested in buying time. Keep moving forward with what we've already built. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep resetting. I don't care about words, just actions. Let's go! Embrace Booker. He is ours and wants to be here. Let's look forward, not backward.

You can resetting until you get it right, or you can act like you’ve gotten it right when you haven’t, with predictable results.

We can give the new FO and coach a chance to rebuild, or we can tell them to roll with what McD/Watson/Kokoskov built. Of course, if that were anything we can win with, those guys would still be here.

Like Indy points out, there have already been a couple of times when we’ve decided we’ve been rebuilding long enough, and it’s time to win. That hasn’t worked out well.

It doesn’t matter how sick and tired you are of rebuilding, all that matters is what you’ve built.

Does anyone seriously think we’re going to surround Booker and Ayton with complementary players and win a championship with those guys as 1-2? We haven’t built a damn thing. Booker’s getting expensive and showing signs of impatience. We get a much longer window with Zion.

Perfectly explained. It’s nothing against Book, it’s about being coldblooded rational about how much time you have left before the kid goes AD on us. I would bet on a Under two years timeline for it.enough

Besides that, having two building blocks locked up in the rookie scale give us more flexibility, but more important, that ”strategy” in recent years that caused too many setbacks, featuring intentional logjams, throwing a bunch of kids on the same position into the fire and see wich one crossed less burned, mixed up with lineups plagued of projects and half baked players and only One or two washed up veterans unable on and off the court to equalize the effort, neither the on court performance of THE TEAM, resulting on a year long parade of people fighting for individual survival and over their heads as a colective group playing against a true team. Jones already declare it, so I really think the focus with a Zion-Ayton tandem will not be the same as the Booker’s era.

Jones is aiming for veterans on their prime taking the load off the kids, allowing them to play second fiddle, then grow them into Stars that take the load as the veterans who nurtured them fade. I’m pretty sure the Nash signing was looking for something along this line of thinking but then SSOL happened and the world was never the same.

If that’s the case, we can keep building or reset, but if NO calls and offer a simple Booker-Zion swap, with us taking dead weight to fill the salary gap, but allowing us to keep the 6th, I would take a long look at this deal and wouldn’t go higher that the Mil pick, we are not as desperate as they are, is true that there are better offers for NO to reset or rebuild, but in order to keep AD, they have to take a deal focused on the present. They can’t sit with AD, show him future picks and kids with potential and then ask him to stay. They need something like Booker to have a solid case.

[In2ition]

Ugh, I don't want to see Booker dealt. He's a star with the right attitude.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

Me neither, but timing is never perfect.

[Shabazz]

I'm really not sweating his trade request 2 years from now. He has no leverage until at least 3.5 years in to his new deal.

[Drewsprocket]

So Gambo says we’re interested in Kemba, Russell, Irving, and Brogdon—all players pretty much guaranteed not coming here. I’d be happy with any of these candidates but this has been the MO for the past several offseasons: “we’re going to sign a star!” And then just draft prospects and sign washed vets. If they can get one of those guys, great! But if you miss, go after the player that’s “gettable”. Lowry, Conley, Rubio would make this team competitive.
Kemba costs too much. Brogdon will re-sign and get paid- hes 90, 50, 40 shooter, creator, defensive player. Russell will get paid to stay too. Irvings going to either play with LBJ in LA or KD in NY.

I am sure they want to re-sign him, but...

They have 95M on the books for next year for only 9 guys (assuming Middleton opts out). Here are their big FAs.

Lopez has been HUGE for them in the playoffs. I assume they see him as a big part of their team, and will try and re-sign him. With his complete change in his game, I assume he can get at least a 2yr/20M contract.

Middleton they have to keep. He was an all-star this year and does a bit of everything for them. Is that a 15M/year deal, or more? He is slated to make 13M next year, but has a player option. I think he has to exercise it and cash in with a long-term contract.

Mirotic hasn't been there long, so I can see them letting him sign some where else.

Brogdon: You already talked about his positives, but the did already give Bledsoe an extension at around 17M/year, and Brogdon plays a combo 1/2 and they might not have enough the appetite to pay him with the other guys above needing a contract too. If they spend the 25/year on those two guys above, they are back to 110M, not counting for any other signings. do they go up to 125-130M just to sign him?

I would go after him at midnight if you have any indication he might sign.

George Hill isn’t guaranteed, so that clears 17 million. Puts them around 75 million

Is this wrong? https://www.spotrac.com/nba/milwaukee-bucks/cap/2019/

It shows Hill as non-guaranteed, but also shows them with a practical cap space of only 5M, with 135M in cap allocations.

Hill’s 18 million and Middleton’s player option are counting towards that 100 million in salary. Take those off...add the dead money and they’re a little over 70 million committed. So they’ve got 60ish million of room before they hit the luxury tax. Should get them Brogdon/Middleton/Lopez no problem. Mirotic could move on.

They’re about to become a death squad with Brogdon, Bledsoe, Middleton, Giannis, and Lopez. I’d trade the 6th and Warren on a sign and trade. I just don’t see them letting him go, knowing that they can dominate the league probably starting next year. If i were the bucks id be looking for a way to get dump Bledsoe and add any pg with a pulse who has range.
Mirotic would be a good addition for us to give Ayton needed space at the 4 spot.
Let me ask this, they offer Brogdon for our 6th and Bridges, warren on a sign and trade would you pull the trigger?