Phx-Suns.Net

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:47 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:39 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm

Everyone says we need a PF we can pair up next to Ayton that doesn't duplicate what he does and doesn't need the ball and space to create. Someone that can actually rebound and most importantly, play defense. That's Clarke. Ayton shores up his shortcomings by being the C that had a good offensive game and smooth jumper.

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

It doesn't make sense to pigeonhole a player like that. Ayton has great shooting mechanics for a big man and he could very likely be a stretch-5 in the mold of Brook Lopez. Just because he's tall doesn't mean he must play in the post, and if there's an equally good inside player on the court then it's best to stretch the better shooter.

Reducing Ayton to a Brook Lopez role would be a massive disappointment.

If we have an equally good inside player on the court, that's a massive disappointment.

I'm depending on Ayton becoming our next franchise player. You should be too. You should be focused on surrounding him with players that maximize his chances at being elite. He will not become elite by becoming an outside shooter. Like you said, Brook Lopez can do that and he's not elite. I want him to do everything Brook Lopez can't because he's a much better player. He should be a generational big man.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm

Everyone says we need a PF we can pair up next to Ayton that doesn't duplicate what he does and doesn't need the ball and space to create. Someone that can actually rebound and most importantly, play defense. That's Clarke. Ayton shores up his shortcomings by being the C that had a good offensive game and smooth jumper.

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:27 am

I watched some videos of Clarke and liked what I saw. Wish he were a better shooter. Do folks think he can improve his shot, or is it broken? Could he get to the point where he could hit corner 3s?

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:58 am

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:27 am

I watched some videos of Clarke and liked what I saw. Wish he were a better shooter. Do folks think he can improve his shot, or is it broken? Could he get to the point where he could hit corner 3s?

He’s already made drastic improvements, his ft shot is fine and he shot ok from midrange. He hardly attempted any 3’s all season. There is definitely a chance he improves

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:01 am

I’d be all in for trading 6 to Atl for two of their 3 1sts.

OE32 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:23 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:01 am

I’d be all in for trading 6 to Atl for two of their 3 1sts.

If we're talking about Culver, Garland, White and Hunter in our range, we have no business keeping the pick.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:55 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:47 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:39 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:32 pm

The paint clogging problem isn’t as big of an issue if Ayton starts hitting 3’s, but if Clarke never shoots, it will be easier for teams to double down on Ayton and leave Clarke. Clarke doesn’t need to be a great shooter, but if he can be average, teams have to close out on him and that opens up more possibilities.

Clarke does seem to be a pretty ideal fit defensively. His size worries me a bit, but it hasn’t stopped him yet, although he will be smaller than both Oubre and Bridges. He’s a better athlete than either of them though.

Ayton needs to be elite inside. Not depending on him hitting 3s. His path to dominance is in the paint. Therefore the other big must stay out of the paint and be a capable 3 pt shooter, not the other way around.

It doesn't make sense to pigeonhole a player like that. Ayton has great shooting mechanics for a big man and he could very likely be a stretch-5 in the mold of Brook Lopez. Just because he's tall doesn't mean he must play in the post, and if there's an equally good inside player on the court then it's best to stretch the better shooter.

Reducing Ayton to a Brook Lopez role would be a massive disappointment.

If we have an equally good inside player on the court, that's a massive disappointment.

I'm depending on Ayton becoming our next franchise player. You should be too. You should be focused on surrounding him with players that maximize his chances at being elite. He will not become elite by becoming an outside shooter. Like you said, Brook Lopez can do that and he's not elite. I want him to do everything Brook Lopez can't because he's a much better player. He should be a generational big man.

We're not going to agree on this draft discussion because I've never expected Ayton to be a generational big man, which is a big reason why I wanted them to draft Luka Doncic.

Lopez was one of the best Centers in the league from 2009-17, earning one All-Star appearance in 2013. I don't think Ayton will do a whole lot better than that. Maybe he makes a couple more All-Star games or a third team All-NBA at his peak, but I really don't think he's going to be Tim Duncan, KG, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc.

It's possible that I'm missing something with Ayton due to the lack of competent PG play and he does become an elite big man who can dominate a game. He certainly talks enough about doing it. I'm just pretty damn skeptical it'll happen after watching recurring mental lapses for his entire rookie year. I hope I'm wrong, but that doesn't change my opinion that the Suns would be wise to find a guy who can make up for Ayton's defensive deficiencies while being flexible with how he's used in the offense.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

OE32 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:18 am

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Yes, a torn meniscus.

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:13 pm

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

In2ition wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:13 pm

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

Don't you also have to have other skills that show your bballiq, such as passing and creating for others? I would think those would be pretty important as a PG. Another would be ball handling. Just thinking out loud, but if you only judged your PGs by shot creation and shooting, wouldn't they just be a SG? Cam Johnson is pretty good, and probably better at shooting and perhaps even shot creation, but I wouldn't think of him as a PG.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:06 pm

Trying to figure out the thinking regarding Clarke. They are saying that drafting him #6 would be a reach. Is the plan to trade down and take him later, like at #10 or #12 or wherever, picking up some other asset in the process? Or to acquire another pick to use to get him? Or to take him at #6, regardless of what spot analysts think he "should" be drafted?

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:54 pm

In2ition wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:13 pm

O_Gardino wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:15 am

Have we talked much about Garland here? I've just watched the highlights, but he doesn't look like a good defender or a true distributor. I just see him as a shooter and a guy who can create his own shot. Those are valuable skills, but that's not enough for me.

Is there more to him than that?

Not that he’s shown, but shot creation and shooting are probably the two most important skills. And he’s pretty elite at them.

Don't you also have to have other skills that show your bballiq, such as passing and creating for others? I would think those would be pretty important as a PG. Another would be ball handling. Just thinking out loud, but if you only judged your PGs by shot creation and shooting, wouldn't they just be a SG? Cam Johnson is pretty good, and probably better at shooting and perhaps even shot creation, but I wouldn't think of him as a PG.

Garland is a pretty elite ball handler. I haven’t watched Cam Johnson much, is he not more of a catch and shoot guy?

Garland creates shots off the dribble and has deep range. Small sample size of course, but he hit over 45% from 3 this year and although I don’t have the numbers, I’ve heard that his shooting percentages look pretty legit when including games before college.

I also never called Garland a pg. I’m not a huge fan of the term, it pigeon holes people into roles. He’s probably always going to be more of a scoring guard, just means you need other players that can pass. Of course you’d want him to develop some playmaking for others as well. And it’s not like he is TJ Warren, he can pass...just not his strong suit.

But hardly anyone is coming into the nba as a complete player. Do you want Garland, elite shooter and ball handler who needs to learn how to make plays for others?
Do you want Culver, well rounded player without any real elite tools?
Do you want Clarke, elite defensive skills, but needs to learn to shoot?

Anyone we’ll be picking in this draft has flaws. We just need to decide which ones we can live with, which tools we want, and which players we think will develop.