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Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:54 pm
by JeremyG
Wormwood wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:07 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 pm
I'd really like for us to have Kevin Love. I don't mind the contract; I think he'd be worth it for the most part. He's exactly what I want in a PF, generally speaking: he hits 3s, rebounds really well, sees the floor and passes well, etc. Not an awesome defender, and he's a bit injury-prone, though I wonder how much of that is due to not having anything to play for lately. And offensively I think he'd match well with Ayton.
The main concern I have about it is that we'd then have three starters who are subpar defenders: Booker, Love, and Ayton. We'd score a lot, but we'd give up a lot, too.
What evidence do you have that Ayton is a subpar defender?
Ayton's Defensive Real Plus Minus (DRPM) was 0.90 (per ESPN), which would make him 40th out of 55 centers in this category.
My point is that we don't know that he is a subpar defender this season. As a rookie, yes you could argue that. He seemed to be improved defensively in his first game this season and we'll have to see where he is at now.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:43 pm
by Superbone
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:16 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:14 pm
I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
Yeah, we're not the Warriors, Lakers, or Knicks. That's for sure. We're on a budget.
OTOH, it could be worse and teams like SA have shown it can be done.
I just want to win. Basketball decisions should always trump financial decisions for a basketball team.
You don't think we all agree with you? It's not our money though that funds it. Remember when we lost Joe Johnson? We don't have an unlimited budget. We just don't. Our GM is forced to make the best decisions possible under certain constraints.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:44 pm
by Indy
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:16 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:14 pm
I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
Yeah, we're not the Warriors, Lakers, or Knicks. That's for sure. We're on a budget.
OTOH, it could be worse and teams like SA have shown it can be done.
I just want to win. Basketball decisions should always trump financial decisions for a basketball team.
If you ran a team that way, you would be out of business quickly unless you were in a top 3-4 market. I don't want the Suns spending 10-20M a year on the luxury tax if it means they will end up moving when they can't sustain it and Vegas wants a team.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 pm
by In2ition
Indy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:44 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:16 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:14 pm
I hate as a Suns fan knowing there is a limit to what they are willing to spend over time.
Yeah, we're not the Warriors, Lakers, or Knicks. That's for sure. We're on a budget.
OTOH, it could be worse and teams like SA have shown it can be done.
I just want to win. Basketball decisions should always trump financial decisions for a basketball team.
If you ran a team that way, you would be out of business quickly unless you were in a top 3-4 market. I don't want the Suns spending 10-20M a year on the luxury tax if it means they will end up moving when they can't sustain it and Vegas wants a team.
Counter Point:
If you run a team where financial decisions trump basketball decisions you get losing Joe Johnson because you didn't want to pay him $5 mil more prior to the '04-'05 season.
You also get your team trading away draft picks for cash$money.
You also get reactionary decisions and not proactive decisions just to placate the fans.
You also get trading away Marion for Shaq.
You also get waiting 15 years to build a practice facility, because an investment into the team and facilities takes a voter decision to agree to it.
You also get not paying your staff more after making the WCF.
You also get going cheap when looking for a GM and Coach, but end up paying for multiple of both at the same time.
You also get eventually 10 yrs of not making the playoffs.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:24 pm
by Superbone
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 pm
You also get waiting 15 years to build a practice facility, because an investment into the team and facilities takes a voter decision to agree to it.
One correction. It is all ownership funds that are paying for the new practice facility.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:27 pm
by In2ition
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:24 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 pm
You also get waiting 15 years to build a practice facility, because an investment into the team and facilities takes a voter decision to agree to it.
One correction. It is all ownership funds that are paying for the new practice facility.
Exactly! But why did it take so long?
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:42 pm
by Split T
I think there is just a balance you have to make. Basketball decisions can’t always trump financial decisions. That doesn’t mean all those things you mentioned were justified though In2. Sarver has definitely struggled at finding the right times to spend and the right times to save.
But you can’t just spend without thought of the consequences. The Dbacks did that and paid some pretty big consequences after their WS title. And spending just for the sake of spending is a problem in a different way. That’s how I see this Kevin Love situation. I’m not against it because we’ll spend too much money on Love, I’m against it because spending that money on Love prevents us from using it in a different manner. It wouldn’t be Sarver limiting the spending, it would be the salary cap. 30 million a year for Love is not an efficient use of that space. We need to be efficient if we’re going to build a contender. No more bad contracts.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:11 pm
by In2ition
Split T wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:42 pm
I think there is just a balance you have to make. Basketball decisions can’t always trump financial decisions. That doesn’t mean all those things you mentioned were justified though In2. Sarver has definitely struggled at finding the right times to spend and the right times to save.
But you can’t just spend without thought of the consequences. The Dbacks did that and paid some pretty big consequences after their WS title. And spending just for the sake of spending is a problem in a different way. That’s how I see this Kevin Love situation. I’m not against it because we’ll spend too much money on Love, I’m against it because spending that money on Love prevents us from using it in a different manner. It wouldn’t be Sarver limiting the spending, it would be the salary cap. 30 million a year for Love is not an efficient use of that space. We need to be efficient if we’re going to build a contender. No more bad contracts.
As much as I enjoy the Dbacks example and warning, it's totally different with a salary cap and rules set with the players association. You can't defer salaries the same way, you have to play within the cap, and the only way you end up paying salaries over a long period is to stretch a bad contract. I don't think that happens with the Suns.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:47 pm
by Indy
It isn't a dichotic decision process. It isn't spend as much as possible for the "best" FA on the market every time and spending past the cap, or selling all of your picks for cash. Play in the middle.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:16 pm
by O_Gardino
Even teams with unlimited budgets still have to follow the CBA.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:21 pm
by Indy
O_Gardino wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:16 pm
Even teams with unlimited budgets still have to follow the CBA.
Only technically. You can afford to go over the cap and pay tax, and you have more to offer from endorsements and life-style. If you are a mid-20s multimillionaire, why would you ever choose to live in OKC, or Indy, or Orlando?
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 am
by In2ition
I'm getting more convinced that Love is going to be traded strictly for cap relief. So Tyler Johnson, Kaminsky and Okobo would do it. Would he be an upgrade from Kaminsky? Yeah. Would he keep the Suns from signing AD this off-season or Giannis the next off-season. Yeah to that too. Those would probably be the only guys that truly elevate this team to a title contender or even favorite.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:49 am
by JeremyG
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 am
I'm getting more convinced that Love is going to be traded strictly for cap relief. So Tyler Johnson, Kaminsky and Okobo would do it. Would he be an upgrade from Kaminsky? Yeah. Would he keep the Suns from signing AD this off-season or Giannis the next off-season. Yeah to that too. Those would probably be the only guys that truly elevate this team to a title contender or even favorite.
I would prefer to wait, if possible, to see how we do with Ayton back first before deciding on bringing in Love.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:55 am
by In2ition
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:49 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 am
I'm getting more convinced that Love is going to be traded strictly for cap relief. So Tyler Johnson, Kaminsky and Okobo would do it. Would he be an upgrade from Kaminsky? Yeah. Would he keep the Suns from signing AD this off-season or Giannis the next off-season. Yeah to that too. Those would probably be the only guys that truly elevate this team to a title contender or even favorite.
I would prefer to wait, if possible, to see how we do with Ayton back first before deciding on bringing in Love.
That's understandable and totally fair.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:36 am
by Indy
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 am
I'm getting more convinced that Love is going to be traded strictly for cap relief. So Tyler Johnson, Kaminsky and Okobo would do it. Would he be an upgrade from Kaminsky? Yeah.
Would he keep the Suns from signing AD this off-season or Giannis the next off-season. Yeah to that too. Those would probably be the only guys that truly elevate this team to a title contender or even favorite.
It isn't about just next year's FA class. We would effectively be out of the FA market (except MLE/minimum deals and new rookies) until the summer of 2023. And we would have to re-up Ayton before that, which likely means not re-upping Mikal and letting Kelly walk away. If it were only through this year and next I would be on board, and even give up assets to make it happen.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:27 pm
by In2ition
Indy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:36 am
In2ition wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:44 am
I'm getting more convinced that Love is going to be traded strictly for cap relief. So Tyler Johnson, Kaminsky and Okobo would do it. Would he be an upgrade from Kaminsky? Yeah.
Would he keep the Suns from signing AD this off-season or Giannis the next off-season. Yeah to that too. Those would probably be the only guys that truly elevate this team to a title contender or even favorite.
It isn't about just next year's FA class. We would effectively be out of the FA market (except MLE/minimum deals and new rookies) until the summer of 2023. And we would have to re-up Ayton before that, which likely means not re-upping Mikal and letting Kelly walk away. If it were only through this year and next I would be on board, and even give up assets to make it happen.
I guess it depends on how good Ayton is and how much better he makes the team "this" year.
I'll be honest, I think I would go after Gallo first, since his contract is about $8 mil less and is expiring. Although, I wouldn't give up a huge amount in a trade for him.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:42 pm
by The Bobster
Josh Jackson is suspended for 1 game by his G-League team -
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/282 ... eague-team
Stupid is as stupid does.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:11 pm
by Wormwood
James Jones indicates that the Suns are not looking at Kevin Love right now, and want to assess how the team looks with Ayton back before making any judgments.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:15 pm
by Shabazz
The Heat are the most impressive organization in the league.
Re: Around the League: Week 7 12/2-12/8
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:47 pm
by Superbone