Phx-Suns.Net

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:17 pm

I am really not liking the Mcgee fit so far.

This is the least shocking development of the season.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:59 pm

Why did we stop going to Ayton in the 2nd half? He had a great first half but then we forgot about him or something.

You could copy and paste this approximately 82 games per season.

And how about running a play for Ayton to get some easy points to win the game on the last possession. So typical to have Booker miss a game winner instead. Booker was 12-28 shooting while Ayton was 9-12.

Kind of a weird game, we looked pretty good in the 1st half but couldn't shake them. Then we came out flat in the 3rd and they got hot from 3. Letting them hang around and hit some shots got them confidence and then they started hitting pretty difficult ones which you can chalk up to luck or the fact that we let them get into a rhythm. Can't keep saying, "well they were just hitting everything", like the Portland game.

CP was off last night. He wasn't looking for his jumper and even when he got into the lane and had space, he seemed hesitant. Hopefully nothing's bothering him physically.

I think I'm about done with the Elfrid Payton experiment. It's not that he was terrible, I just don't like his game. He's a liability on offense, doesn't seem to play with any energy or urgency and really isn't even that good on defense. Might just be me after watching him with the Knicks where he was awful and lost all confidence late in the year. I just don't know who picks up his minutes with Payne out.

DA was great in the 1st half, Casper in the 2nd half which is the typical story with us. Someone's gotta recognize this - Monty, DA, CP, Book - and make a point to get him involved. Seemed like the Kings were doing a better on him in the 2nd half but we can't let him be completely ignored like that. Great job on the boards tho and his Js looked really good.

Good to see Crowder hit shots late, hopefully that carries over to the next game. Gotta get more from Cam and Shamet off the bench, which I think could come from more PointBook.

Definitely not worried because the pieces are there. Monty's still experimenting with lineup combos and different sets for certain guys like Mikal. Gotta get the bench scoring up tho because that's really where our 3pt shotmakers - CamJ and Shamet - can build the lead over other benches.

One other thing to keep an eye on that's been in the back of my mind is how we come out at halftime. Willie Green was apparently a huge help in defensive adjustments at halftime but he's in NOLA now.

Something's off with CP...+/- at -29 and 2/5 vs Blazers and 1/10 here? I fear he's hurt again...

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:17 pm

I am really not liking the Mcgee fit so far. Just a rollercoaster and not our type of player. He isn’t the reason we lost, just a random thought. Game gets real ugly with him.

Interesting; I have really liked the way he has played for us. He's mobile and plays pretty good defense. He gets 1-2 blocks in most games. He also runs the floor and is a decent finisher when he rolls to the rim. I actually don't think he hurt us last night; I think he gave us pretty good minutes. Last night he had 7 points and 11 rebounds in 14 minutes. Is that bad?

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401359886

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:31 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:17 pm

I am really not liking the Mcgee fit so far. Just a rollercoaster and not our type of player. He isn’t the reason we lost, just a random thought. Game gets real ugly with him.

Interesting; I have really liked the way he has played for us. He's mobile and plays pretty good defense. He gets 1-2 blocks in most games. He also runs the floor and is a decent finisher when he rolls to the rim. I actually don't think he hurt us last night; I think he gave us pretty good minutes. Last night he had 7 points and 11 rebounds in 14 minutes. Is that bad?

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401359886

They got 28 points and 32 rebounds from their centers last night - so I don't think that was the problem.

Look no further than shooting 6/22 on 3's while Sacramento shot 15/38. Cam Johnson has to do better than 1 point and 1 rebound in 23 minutes and Crowder needs to get his shot going.

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:24 am

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

Facts are facts. I know Cam J is your boy and all but he's looked bad these first 4 games. Do you think 1 point and 1 rebound in 20+ minutes is NBA caliber? I know he's going to get better but he hasn't produced this season.

If Johnson isn't making shots, he isn't any help.

So it's a case if if he's not shooting the ball well he'd better expand his game or he'll be on the bench.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:27 am

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:24 am

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

Facts are facts. I know Cam J is your boy and all but he's looked bad these first 4 games. Do you think 1 point and 1 rebound in 20+ minutes is NBA caliber? I know he's going to get better but he hasn't produced this season.

If Ayton had a game with 20+ minutes with 1 point and 1 rebound some people here would be calling for his head on a pike.

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

The Bobster wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:41 am

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:27 am

bajanguy008 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:24 am

Interesting take Shel
Well you did preface it by saying you like players with reliable jumpers but I think Payton been fine. I not seeing the lack of urgency you referenced, I actually think getting down hill and looking to attack the paint is what he been doing best.
To me his on ball D is good also so I honestly think he's been fine.

Maaaan Bobster, you had to be the lowest on Cam J all last season sigh smh

Facts are facts. I know Cam J is your boy and all but he's looked bad these first 4 games. Do you think 1 point and 1 rebound in 20+ minutes is NBA caliber? I know he's going to get better but he hasn't produced this season.

If Ayton had a game with 20+ minutes with 1 point and 1 rebound some people here would be calling for his head on a pike.

And yet Cam is the one that everyone said we had to save money on Ayton for, in order to pay him because he was gonna take a leap and cost us a bunch of money and if we gave Ayton the max we wouldn’t be able to keep him. Lol.

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

I would be very curious to see what percentage of Ayton’s points come in the first quarter and first half. It’s got to be a ridiculous number.

I think Cam's issue is a combo of teams scouting him and also not getting the same looks within the offense. He and Payne had a good connection together off the bench, Elf tends to dribble and probe more.

I'm trying not to turn completely on Elf, just not a fan overall.

Oh and I didn’t even mention Monty taking Ayton out for the final defensive possession. Maybe if he leaves him in, the Kings don’t win. All they ever do is punish him (on the court and financially) for playing great and for being willing to sacrifice himself so that the team can lose!

If I was Ayton I would definitely want to leave this summer.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:54 am

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in everyway to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Can't disagree with any of this. I do think Cam will get it going because he's shown enough offensive versatility to where he's not just a 3pt shooter. Shamet I'm confident will come around but I think his role may need to be adjusted to being more on the ball. It was hard watching him last night and not thinking about that contract tho, because if he doesn't come around and play consistently, we'll look pretty bad. But yea, if DA were slouching and his stats were falling off, everyone would be all over him.

To the point about the 2nd half, teams are adjusting to the PnR and the lobs over the top. We do need to try and get him more involved but it also shows how ineffective he can be when his main thing - lobs from the PnR - is taken away. We've got to give him a chance to make an impact, but he's also got to follow thru and make the impact.

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:54 am

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Great post, and I agree 100%. So many people here call Ayton a "soft" player or other various derogatory nicknames. But he's a big man; he doesn't run the offense, and he doesn't have the ball in his hands the way Book or CP3 would. I don't see how he's supposed to just force his way to 15 shots per half if other players don't want to feed him or work with him on that end of the floor. It's really weird how much we go to him early in the game and then completely stop doing it in the second half. Ayton isn't perfect; sometimes he lets an entry pass slip through his hands. But in general, if you get him the ball in good inside position, he's an incredibly efficient scorer. I don't see why they go away from that at halftime.

I just worry that we aren't going to give Ayton a real chance to showcase his skills, and then we're going to decide that he isn't a max player because of it. Almost anybody looks mediocre if you don't bother to involve them or put them in a position to succeed.

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:01 pm

AmareIsGod wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:54 am

JeremyG wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 am

Ayton could have easily had, and deserved to have, his first 30-20 game. He was the one who was shooting well, and if we had gone to him in the second half his 30-20 would likely have been enough for the win as well.

Utter insanity and drives me crazy how they always refuse to use him in the second half, especially in crunch time of close games when you need easy points (free throws or efficient field goals). And that’s even after he showed he could get to the free throw line a couple times earlier in the 4th quarter.

It's a joke. Shamet gets paid and hadn't paid a SINGLE regular season game with us. Ayton was easily one of the biggest reasons we went to the Finals last year due to his dominance in the playoffs. The guy is on pace for a historic game at half time and what does coach and the team do? They fail in every way to get him touches and involved in the 2nd half. Hmm.. I wonder why he doesn't put up "max worthy" performances during the regular season regularly? Maybe because his team forgets he's on the court and hoists up 3's the majority of the game and keep on feeding players that are cold to "get hot".

Like Bobster said. If Ayton had 1 point and 1 rebound, he'd be crucified by .net. Cam Johnson has a night like that and it's "Cam needs to be more consistent out there".

I know, I know. We have an 'All Things Ayton' thread and I even managed to talk myself back and agree that he should earn his max this year. But last night was a longstanding example of what we always see. Ayton dominates during the first half and the team gives zero fucks about getting him involved in the 2nd half. "But Ayton isn't making himself as open as he was in the 1st half. Ayton isn't setting hard screens and rolling." Bullshit. You can see in the first half they are clearly running plays for him and he's setting those screens and rolling. Getting himself open.

Lots of folks think he needs to just go and get his points in the 2nd half without plays being run. Why? Why doesn't that apply to anyone else? I don't see Shamet, Cam J, Bridges, Crowder screen and rolling and doing a bunch of stuff to get their shot. They are camping out by the 3 point line, waiting for penetration and then putting up their hand calling for the ball. But Ayton is the one that should be doing more to force himself to be inserted into the offense in the 2nd half of games. It's a joke.

Great post, and I agree 100%. So many people here call Ayton a "soft" player or other various derogatory nicknames. But he's a big man; he doesn't run the offense, and he doesn't have the ball in his hands the way Book or CP3 would. I don't see how he's supposed to just force his way to 15 shots per half if other players don't want to feed him or work with him on that end of the floor. It's really weird how much we go to him early in the game and then completely stop doing it in the second half. Ayton isn't perfect; sometimes he lets an entry pass slip through his hands. But in general, if you get him the ball in good inside position, he's an incredibly efficient scorer. I don't see why they go away from that at halftime.

I just worry that we aren't going to give Ayton a real chance to showcase his skills, and then we're going to decide that he isn't a max player because of it. Almost anybody looks mediocre if you don't bother to involve them or put them in a position to succeed.

Exactly. Personally, at this point I wouldn't mind if a new owner does want to bring in a new GM and a new Coach. Monty was criticized for the way he utilized Anthony Davis his first few years in the league also. It doesn't seem like he learned much from that.