Around the League: October

[da_suns_fan]

DSF is just trying to make a splashy statement. Nothing to see here.

Not sure what you mean by "splashy".

Im simply pointing out that none of us know who's training staff is better than the others and the halo around the Suns training staff was concocted by the local media and exacerbated by pundits such as Bill Simmons who also dont know what theyre talking about.

Shabazz's post is a PERFECT example. He points out that Shaq played more games in his first full season in Phoenix than he did in the previous eight season in MIami in L.A. This is a spurious correlation, at best.

Its POSSIBLE this is due to the training staff, but probably not. It could be due to coaching, play style, environment (maybe Shaq didnt party as much in Phoenix as he did in LA and MIami), diet, or a million other behavioral factors combined. We dont know.

He then bottomed out after leaving Phoenix. Is this because of Cleveland's training staff, or did his 38 year old joints have trouble adjusting to playing in the freezing cold cities of Cleveland and Boston? Or the fact that he was simply too old? Or maybe he had just given up. We dont know.

There seems to be this belief that older players will do better here because of our training staff, but theres been plenty of players (who I pointed out earlier) that came here later in their careers and werent successful. And people also seem to forget that Shaq did have injuries here (back that he attributed to Lopez's shoving him in the back during practice). So did Nash (back issues...a lot). So did Grant HIll (hernia..missed all of the 2008 playoffs).

Show me a published report in a medical journal comparing/contrasting the different techniques used by different NBA teams and experts opinions as to who's doing the best. Even then, the conclusions would be based almost solely on opinion since theres no randomization or blocking of external factors.

[carey]

So yeah, I think the conclusion that the Suns' medical staff is extraordinary is off-base.

That's a lot of effort to explain that correlation does not equal causation. We all know that (or at least I hope we do.) However, if we were writing about this for a medical journal we would be required to give expert opinion by an authority in the field where we can't collect data. This is a subject where it would be very hard to find any meaningful statistics to support an argument. So we have to go to what the players themselves have said and what other medical professionals have said about the training staff. Yes, these are opinions, but it's opinions by those people that are experts in the field. Opinions by people that should matter. You are right to be skeptical, we should all be a little more skeptical, but I think you're wrong here.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I had a friend who tried to psicanalyze me after her two first semesters in college because the two curses he took, absolutely prepare her to do so.

Mouth to mouth recomendation is a valid way to evaluate any service, so if the players around the NBA gives extra credits to the Suns' medical staff over the rest, I will take their word, specially veterans.

[da_suns_fan]

So yeah, I think the conclusion that the Suns' medical staff is extraordinary is off-base.

That's a lot of effort to explain that correlation does not equal causation. We all know that (or at least I hope we do.) However, if we were writing about this for a medical journal we would be required to give expert opinion by an authority in the field where we can't collect data. This is a subject where it would be very hard to find any meaningful statistics to support an argument. So we have to go to what the players themselves have said and what other medical professionals have said about the training staff. Yes, these are opinions, but it's opinions by those people that are experts in the field. Opinions by people that should matter. You are right to be skeptical, we should all be a little more skeptical, but I think you're wrong here.

Im not even sure if this is an example of "correlation". I'd say this is an example of "cherry picking three players and disregarding everyone else".

I agree the players probably have seen different teams so if they say the Suns' training staff is superb, it could be true. But then they could be biased to their new employer. What do you expect them to say? Wouldnt EVERY nba player say that their team has a great training staff when asked? And, really, how many different training staffs do players really see? Jim Jackson played for ten nba teams and thats only 1/3. So even players really have a VERY limited view.

And I said earlier, a defensive Miami staff was pretty upset that Shaq basically threw them under the bus when they did the same techniques that the Suns staff did.

[da_suns_fan]

I had a friend who tried to psicanalyze me after her two first semesters in college because the two curses he took, absolutely prepare her to do so.

Mouth to mouth recomendation is a valid way to evaluate any service, so if the players around the NBA gives extra credits to the Suns' medical staff over the rest, I will take their word, specially veterans.

I have a masters in engineering (albeit it from ASU) and this isnt psychology.

[Shabazz]

DSF is just trying to make a splashy statement. Nothing to see here.

Shabazz's post is a PERFECT example. He points out that Shaq played more games in his first full season in Phoenix than he did in the previous eight season in MIami in L.A. This is a spurious correlation, at best.

Its POSSIBLE this is due to the training staff, but probably not. It could be due to coaching, play style, environment (maybe Shaq didnt party as much in Phoenix as he did in LA and MIami), diet, or a million other behavioral factors combined. We dont know.

But we do know. Because Shaq said as much.

"His butt muscles, that was the biggest thing,'' Suns athletic trainer Aaron Nelson said. "He knew that. We do manual muscle testing to show if a muscle is weak or strong, and it was pretty much nothing there.''

Shaq's base, Nelson said, affects "everything that he does, from being able to run straight ahead, to go side-to-side, to pivoting, stuff that he does normally. Rebounding and coming down, he's got to be able to stabilize. That muscle is a very important muscle, and if that's weak then you've got a lot of other compensations.''

Shaq credits the Suns' training staff with extending his career. It employs a system called Optimum Performance Training, based on a scientific understanding of how different parts of the body help or hinder each other.

"A lot of these teams have got the old trainers, who I consider 'analog trainers,' and they just go with the stim [electric stimulation] and the sound [ultrasound],'' O'Neal said. "But that don't really work no more. Your body is like a building, and if certain things are off [in the foundation] then the whole thing's going to be off.

"I had pulled a hip muscle, and when you pull one muscle, the other muscles start to overwork. So with me pulling this muscle, all these muscles shut down, and then my ass muscles were starting to work. And that's where all the pain was coming from.''

O'Neal is bitter that the Heat didn't diagnose the relationships between his muscle groups.

"They didn't see that,'' he said. "That's the stuff that you can't see in the MRI. So they would take MRIs and they wouldn't see anything. Because of what was going on, they would make excuses -- 'Oh, he's getting divorced, his career's over, he don't want to play ... he's faking.'

"I had a freaking pain right here,'' O'Neal said, grabbing below his right hip. "I'm sort of old school myself, so I'll suck it up a few days. But then if it all hurts, give me a shot. And then usually when the shot don't work, something else is wrong. But we were taking MRIs and nothing else was wrong. I went to a so-called expert in California and he didn't know what was wrong.''

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/2 ... -countdown

But go ahead and argue that it could have been a butterfly flapping its wings in Japan that led to Shaq being healthier than at any point in a 10 year period.

[Shabazz]

Here's a good read about the training staff:

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/s ... ing-staff/

[ShelC]

We do manual muscle testing to show if a muscle is weak or strong, and it was pretty much nothing there.''

[da_suns_fan]

DSF is just trying to make a splashy statement. Nothing to see here.

Shabazz's post is a PERFECT example. He points out that Shaq played more games in his first full season in Phoenix than he did in the previous eight season in MIami in L.A. This is a spurious correlation, at best.

Its POSSIBLE this is due to the training staff, but probably not. It could be due to coaching, play style, environment (maybe Shaq didnt party as much in Phoenix as he did in LA and MIami), diet, or a million other behavioral factors combined. We dont know.

But we do know. Because Shaq said as much.

"His butt muscles, that was the biggest thing,'' Suns athletic trainer Aaron Nelson said. "He knew that. We do manual muscle testing to show if a muscle is weak or strong, and it was pretty much nothing there.''

Shaq's base, Nelson said, affects "everything that he does, from being able to run straight ahead, to go side-to-side, to pivoting, stuff that he does normally. Rebounding and coming down, he's got to be able to stabilize. That muscle is a very important muscle, and if that's weak then you've got a lot of other compensations.''

Shaq credits the Suns' training staff with extending his career. It employs a system called Optimum Performance Training, based on a scientific understanding of how different parts of the body help or hinder each other.

"A lot of these teams have got the old trainers, who I consider 'analog trainers,' and they just go with the stim [electric stimulation] and the sound [ultrasound],'' O'Neal said. "But that don't really work no more. Your body is like a building, and if certain things are off [in the foundation] then the whole thing's going to be off.

"I had pulled a hip muscle, and when you pull one muscle, the other muscles start to overwork. So with me pulling this muscle, all these muscles shut down, and then my ass muscles were starting to work. And that's where all the pain was coming from.''

O'Neal is bitter that the Heat didn't diagnose the relationships between his muscle groups.

"They didn't see that,'' he said. "That's the stuff that you can't see in the MRI. So they would take MRIs and they wouldn't see anything. Because of what was going on, they would make excuses -- 'Oh, he's getting divorced, his career's over, he don't want to play ... he's faking.'

"I had a freaking pain right here,'' O'Neal said, grabbing below his right hip. "I'm sort of old school myself, so I'll suck it up a few days. But then if it all hurts, give me a shot. And then usually when the shot don't work, something else is wrong. But we were taking MRIs and nothing else was wrong. I went to a so-called expert in California and he didn't know what was wrong.''

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2008/03/2 ... -countdown

But go ahead and argue that it could have been a butterfly flapping its wings in Japan that led to Shaq being healthier than at any point in a 10 year period.

Wow.

So your basing your argument not on data but on what SHAQ said about his former employer that he had a falling out with??

We know Shaq was bitter after leaving Orlando, Los Angeles AND Miami. All three teams had somewhat bad breakups:

No, the final days of O’Neal’s tenure with the Miami Heat were not pretty.

If the rancor that followed his South Florida departure wasn’t enough, everything from deriding former Heat teammates Chris Quinn and Ricky Davis to calling out the Heat’s training staff, O’Neal picks up where he left off in “Shaq Uncut: My Story,” his about-to-be-released autobiography written with ESPN personality Jackie MacMullan.

It has been nearly three years since O’Neal forced his way out of South Florida in the wake of growing unease with Riley, the Heat president who at the time also served as the team’s coach.

So take what he says with a grain of salt. Id prefer actual data to the opinions of a salty SHAQ. But the again, I'd prefer data to the opinions of ANYONE.

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a good read about the training staff:

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/s ... ing-staff/

Youre not getting it.

1) That article profiles the Suns techniques but doesnt have a single statement as to if other teams use the same or even more advanced techniques. The author simply points out the Suns methods and CHERRY PICKS three players (always Nash, Hill and Shaq) as "proof" that it works.

2) The "WARP" data conclusion is absurdly stupid. Trying to look at "number of games missed" over the last ten years as a measurement of a teams training staff is absurdly flawed. And by that measure, the Suns werent even first. San Antonio was.

I guess the Spurs have a better training staff than the Suns.

[Mori Chu]

You can never do a controlled experiment on this stuff because you can't repeat the conditions and eliminate other variables like climate, player genetics, off-court behavior, diet, coaching decisions, etc. It'd take a cloning machine and decades of observations to really know. All you can really do is look at the results and decide if you think they strongly suggest a causal difference.

We've heard lots of players and NBA folks praise the Suns training staff, citing specific advanced techniques they use to prevent and repair injury better than other teams. And we have lots of circumstantial data of players being here and playing at high levels of health for years, along with those same players leaving (or being elsewhere before) with much worse health.

It's not conclusive proof in any scientific way, but it is a pretty strong suggestion to me. Ignore it if you like.

[da_suns_fan]

You can never do a controlled experiment on this stuff because you can't repeat the conditions and eliminate other variables like climate, player genetics, off-court behavior, diet, coaching decisions, etc. It'd take a cloning machine and decades of observations to really know. All you can really do is look at the results and decide if you think they strongly suggest a causal difference.

We've heard lots of players and NBA folks praise the Suns training staff, citing specific advanced techniques they use to prevent and repair injury better than other teams. And we have lots of circumstantial data of players being here and playing at high levels of health for years, along with those same players leaving (or being elsewhere before) with much worse health.

It's not conclusive proof in any scientific way, but it is a pretty strong suggestion to me. Ignore it if you like.

All true. As you said. Strong suggestion. A good place to START.

Frye just got injured. Lets ask Channing about Orlando's training staff. What techniques do THEY use? Do they use the advanced Whole Body Cryotherapy the Suns are famous for?

GUESS WHAT? THEY DO!

http://icelandcryo.com/wp/88/

[da_suns_fan]

BAM:

O'Neal embraces therapy with Suns he rejected with Heat:

'When I came out here, these guys just said, `We can fix you up. We're going to make you feel like you're 20,' '' O'Neal said. ``And they do stuff I've never seen before. No shots, no [electric stimulation], no ice. All they do is just touch you and work on the stuff.''
Although that might be true, the fact is the Heat spent exhaustive resources trying to help O'Neal. The team invested in an expensive blood circulation machine that he barely used, a high-altitude training room — and considered installing another one in his home — and Alter-G treadmills that lessen the burden on the lower body while running. The Heat also hired two of the more reputable physical trainers in South Florida to work with O'Neal. The staff attempted to convince O'Neal to try methods now being used by the Suns' trainers, but he was hardly cooperative.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post ... 52&print=1

[Aztec Sunsfan]

I had a friend who tried to psicanalyze me after her two first semesters in college because the two curses he took, absolutely prepare her to do so.

Mouth to mouth recomendation is a valid way to evaluate any service, so if the players around the NBA gives extra credits to the Suns' medical staff over the rest, I will take their word, specially veterans.

I have a masters in engineering (albeit it from ASU) and this isnt psychology.

And to evaluate a private organization is not an exact science either, so engineering is as good as psychology to explain it.

I have a degree in Economics and I do not try to use it for changing lightbolts around my house or to check the tires' pressure from my car in the morning. It's really useful, but it is not for everything.

[Superbone]

I have a masters in engineering (albeit it from ASU) and this isnt psychology.

Congratulations. I only have a BSE.

[Superbone]

But the again, I'd prefer data to the opinions of ANYONE.

Obviously. Data is EVERYTHING.

[Superbone]

You can never do a controlled experiment on this stuff because you can't repeat the conditions and eliminate other variables like climate, player genetics, off-court behavior, diet, coaching decisions, etc. It'd take a cloning machine and decades of observations to really know. All you can really do is look at the results and decide if you think they strongly suggest a causal difference.

We've heard lots of players and NBA folks praise the Suns training staff, citing specific advanced techniques they use to prevent and repair injury better than other teams. And we have lots of circumstantial data of players being here and playing at high levels of health for years, along with those same players leaving (or being elsewhere before) with much worse health.

It's not conclusive proof in any scientific way, but it is a pretty strong suggestion to me. Ignore it if you like.

Bingo. Why ignore common sense?

[Shabazz]

Here's a good read about the training staff:

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/s ... ing-staff/

Youre not getting it.

1) That article profiles the Suns techniques but doesnt have a single statement as to if other teams use the same or even more advanced techniques. The author simply points out the Suns methods and CHERRY PICKS three players (always Nash, Hill and Shaq) as "proof" that it works.

2) The "WARP" data conclusion is absurdly stupid. Trying to look at "number of games missed" over the last ten years as a measurement of a teams training staff is absurdly flawed. And by that measure, the Suns werent even first. San Antonio was.

I guess the Spurs have a better training staff than the Suns.

I think the data/proof you're looking for would be impossible to produce.

I agree that there are a multitude of factors that go into player health and performance. But to the extent that "Training Staff" is a factor, I don't understand why it's difficult to believe that our training staff has more of an impact relative to the rest of the league.

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a good read about the training staff:

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/s ... ing-staff/

Youre not getting it.

1) That article profiles the Suns techniques but doesnt have a single statement as to if other teams use the same or even more advanced techniques. The author simply points out the Suns methods and CHERRY PICKS three players (always Nash, Hill and Shaq) as "proof" that it works.

2) The "WARP" data conclusion is absurdly stupid. Trying to look at "number of games missed" over the last ten years as a measurement of a teams training staff is absurdly flawed. And by that measure, the Suns werent even first. San Antonio was.

I guess the Spurs have a better training staff than the Suns.

I think the data/proof you're looking for would be impossible to produce.

I agree that there are a multitude of factors that go into player health and performance. But to the extent that "Training Staff" is a factor, I don't understand why it's difficult to believe that our training staff has more of an impact relative to the rest of the league.

Because I havent seen any empirical data to suggest this is true despite the hype. Its just that enough uneducated bloggers have repeated it so many times its widely accepted as "fact" by the masses. Shaq's dishonest comparison only fueled the fire.

Pick a team. ANY team. In five minutes of google-ing I can produce information as to how that teams training staff is using the latest and greatest cutting-edge science and techniques to not only treat injuries but also prevent them from happening.

[Shabazz]

I'm watching a little Lakers/Nuggets preseason. The Nuggets remind me a little of our team with a ton of redundant talent at mid-level salaries. How does this rotation shake out:

PG: Lawson, Nate Robinson
SG: Afflalo, Foye, Harris
SF: Gallinari, Chandler, Quincy Miller
PF: Faried, Hickson, Arthur
C: McGee, Mozgov, Koufos, Nurkic

Either their young guys will languish on the bench or they'll end up sitting some mid-level priced players, or both. They have at least 12 guys expecting time, not including the rooks.

I feel like a Nurkic-Ennis trade would make sense for both teams.