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Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:08 pm
by JeremyG
Wally_West wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:21 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:55 am
So in terms of the "are we a championship contender?" question, I think the answer is a resounding, "Maybe."
I don't think this team currently looks like a title team, but arguably there's no dominant team in the West right now. The Pelicans look great, the Grizz and Nuggets are frisky, the Mavs are okay, the Warriors have championship pedigree, ... but nobody looks dominant and nobody is invincible. Plenty of these teams are teams we have beaten before and can beat again. I'm actually not that scared of the Warriors this year, given all their struggles. And I think we could beat the Nuggets again, and I think we could beat the Mavs. I'm a bit scared of the Pelicans and Grizzlies given their size, athleticism, and depth. But the Pels have a superstar who's always injured, and we've beaten them before. And the Grizz don't have championship experience. Both of those teams are super young and could wilt in the pressure of the playoffs.
So I guess I'm saying that I could picture us somehow wiggling our way to the Finals again if we had some luck and played our best. Do I think that's the most likely outcome? No, it feels more like we'd get eliminated in the 2nd round right now. But we aren't too far off from getting to the next levels depending on matchups, health, possible trades, etc.
Once we hypothetically got to the Finals, though, we'd have to face either the Celtics or Bucks, and imo either of those teams would smoke us in a series. My best hope would be that the Bucks beat the Celtics and we get a rematch of 2021. We probably wouldn't be favored but it'd be fun to watch.
So I'd put us in maybe the top 3-4 teams in the West with an outside shot at the Finals. To me that's a fringe contender. I would prefer to "go for it" and try to win this year rather than be overcautious and horde future assets. I don't want to mortgage all our picks for Eric Gordon or whatever, but I think we are close to being an elite team and would like to see 1-2 moves to try to get better this year.
Agree with all this. I think it’s silly to say our championship window has closed right now…that doesn’t mean its very open tho lol.
As long as we have a healthy Book I feel like the window will always be slightly open.
That's not very reassuring. The fact that we gave him a quarter of a billion dollars and he keeps having hamstring issues is starting to worry me. He's had hamstring injuries in both playoff runs also, which arguably cost us at least one championship.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:21 pm
by ShelC
Book's one of the most durable stars around. Other stars/players will want to play with him. That keeps the window open a bit unless we really fall off back into the Blanks/McD years to the point where he asks out. But we have a young core of Book, Mikal and DA locked in. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:27 pm
by Mori Chu
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:08 pm
That's not very reassuring. The fact that we gave him a quarter of a billion dollars and he keeps having hamstring issues is starting to worry me. He's had hamstring injuries in both playoff runs also, which arguably cost us at least one championship.
IMO Book has cost us zero championships. Giannis cost us one, and Luka + COVID cost us the other. (Though there are about 87 reasons why we didn't win it last year.)
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:03 pm
by specialsauce
Here we go with the COVID again
So is COVID the reason Dallas blasted us last week?
We got annihilated by Dallas because they were a better coached team, and they continue to own us mentally and physically from coach to players.
One player and a bunch of random staff members having Covid has nothing to do with it
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:30 pm
by Drewsprocket
Anyone think we’re going to witness a dismantling of the roster to entice potential buyers with a blank canvas? We lost last season due to an inconsistent bench. Now here we are with this shit.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:53 pm
by Shabazz
I just want to say, to all of those who kept defending James Jones' philosophy of not caring about losing trades on the margins and not valuing the draft because you cared about results over process, that we're just starting to reap the downsides of those decisions and it will only get worse before it gets better. If we have to use assets now to extend our window, it's because we wasted those assets earlier.
And it was never an either/or thing! We didn't need to add De'Anthony Melton (and two picks!) to the Josh Jackson deal. Melton is thriving right now and would be a great complement to Book. We could have just waived and stretched Jackson. We didn't need to add the 32nd pick (could have been Bol Bol) to the TJ Warren deal. We literally handed him to the Pacers for cash and he was a 20 ppg scorer. They would have said no without the pick? Did we have to attach a pick in the Shamet deal as Shamet was about to enter RFA? The Nets are laughing all the way to the bank on that one.
That's a late first, 3 second rounders, Jevon and Melton that we’ve given away and we've got nothing to show for it. That could have been an entire pipeline of decent young talent. We wouldn't have hit on all 4 picks, but with a FO that takes the draft seriously, could we have not hit on 2? What a shitshow.
[/rant]
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:55 pm
by INFORMER
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:44 pm
In other words, I think we missed our window with Paul. Our Finals year was it.
Yep.
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:44 pm
We have a very good team and a young core entering their prime.
I don't know how much the youth of that core matters. It means they can play at their current level for a number of years, sure, but it isn't an athletic core. Just a bunch of shooters basically. There is Ayton, but he rarely utilizes his athleticism to impact the game.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:55 pm
by Wally_West
Remember how we could’ve drafted Tyrese Halliburton?
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:35 pm
by JeremyG
That's basically the only move we needed to make to keep the window open for awhile. And I don't care if he said not to draft him (which has never been confirmed AFAIK). You draft him. Period.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:55 pm
by TOO
Glad to see people coming around.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:27 pm
by Shabazz
Atlanta has continued its pursuit of Jae Crowder, and a new three-team concept with Utah and Phoenix circled around league executives this week. The Hawks certainly view the Jazz as a potential landing spot for John Collins. But while Utah has signaled a willingness to discuss Jarred Vanderbilt — of known interest to the Suns — and Landry Shamet has often been included in deal frameworks that would send Crowder to Atlanta, this structure appears to be an expired idea that never gained significant traction due to draft pick compensation and other shortcomings.
Bogdan and Vando would be an amazing return if we're also able to offload Shamet. I'd be up for giving a first in that scenario.
Vando would be such a great fit here.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:36 pm
by Superbone
You guys are going to have a party the day Shamet is no longer a Sun. Poor guy.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:47 pm
by TOO
Superbone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:36 pm
You guys are going to have a party the day Shamet is no longer a Sun. Poor guy.
Dude is flat out terrible. Shouldnt even be in the NBA.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:08 pm
by specialsauce
TOO wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:36 pm
You guys are going to have a party the day Shamet is no longer a Sun. Poor guy.
Dude is flat out terrible. Shouldnt even be in the NBA.
Agree
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:16 pm
by Shabazz
Superbone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:36 pm
You guys are going to have a party the day Shamet is no longer a Sun. Poor guy.
I gave him a shot this season and there were some encouraging signs to start, but what is he even bringing to the table at this point that we couldn't replace at the minimum?
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:53 pm
by Mori Chu
TOO wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:47 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:36 pm
You guys are going to have a party the day Shamet is no longer a Sun. Poor guy.
Dude is flat out terrible. Shouldnt even be in the NBA.
He actually puts up ok numbers if you play him heavy minutes and allow him to get comfortable. But he isn't good enough to really deserve those minutes. He needs to be okay with playing 15-20 minutes tops and making a contribution in limited time on the court, catch-and-shooting, being a gunner off the bench. But he just doesn't get warm unless you play him too many minutes.
I really wish the guy could figure it out, but it's clear he sucks and isn't going to be a positive contributor here.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:32 am
by The Bobster
Shamet is a guy with one real NBA skill (shooting) who doesn't really take advantage of that one skill.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:33 am
by specialsauce
The Bobster wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:32 am
Shamet is a guy with one real NBA skill (shooting) who doesn't really take advantage of that one skill.
Why does he still have a reputation as a shooter? He’s nothing a minimum level guy can’t replace. He has hovered around 40% FG% his whole career, which is not good. He has been at mid-high 30s from 3, which is nothing special. His shot is flat and he rushes it most of the time.
The dude just sucks and I can’t believe we extended the guy for what we did
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:33 am
by Mori Chu
specialsauce wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:33 am
The Bobster wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:32 am
Shamet is a guy with one real NBA skill (shooting) who doesn't really take advantage of that one skill.
Why does he still have a reputation as a shooter? He’s nothing a minimum level guy can’t replace. He has hovered around 40% FG% his whole career, which is not good. He has been at mid-high 30s from 3, which is nothing special. His shot is flat and he rushes it most of the time.
The dude just sucks and I can’t believe we extended the guy for what we did
It's pretty damning of Shamet that we can just find a guy like Damion Lee and sign him for peanuts and now he is literally leading the league in 3pt%, meanwhile Shamet is making way more money to be completely unplayable on both ends of the floor.
Re: Jae Crowder trade request
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:16 am
by ShelC
Shamet was a major miss and hopefully a learning experience for Monty and James Jones. I understand the rationale and strategy behind making the move, they just missed with the player. The FO did much better with Landale, Okogie and Lee this offseason.