Trump 2024

[Nodack]

America might surprise you. I hope it does.

[Nodack]

You in Phoenix yet Bone? I’m playing big ball tonight in a 14 piece band.

[Superbone]

You in Phoenix yet Bone? I’m playing big ball tonight in a 14 piece band.

Dude, it's only the 20th! I've got a lot to do before even contacting somebody to get my house on the market. Having said that, yeah, I've got to get moving! (Literally.)

[Nodack]

Well don’t wait until it’s 115 to move.

[Superbone]

Well don’t wait until it’s 115 to move.

I might get a better deal on my AZ house if I do.

[JeremyG]

I was just thinking, even if the SCOTUS removes Trump from the ballot, the RNC could just have a stand-in candidate on the ballot, and their electors could still vote for Trump.

(Hope they aren’t reading this…)

[In2ition]

I was just thinking, even if the SCOTUS removes Trump from the ballot, the RNC could just have a stand-in candidate on the ballot, and their electors could still vote for Trump.

(Hope they aren’t reading this…)

This is the least likely thing to happen. The RNC has been actively trying to distance themselves from Trump, and putting their money behind Haley and any establishment candidates they can. If Trump isn't on the ballot, they will turn their back on him and claim innocence. "There is nothing we can do" "Our hands were tied" "Now send money to Vote Red to stop those dastardly Dems." They will be privately celebrating. Ronna McDaniels will be popping champagne with her dad.

[Mori Chu]

Trump once again praises dictators and strongmen. It's amazing to me that he can do this repeatedly and nothing comes of it.

[In2ition]

Explain how Orban is a dictator and Hungary is a dictatorship.

[Nodack]

Hungry and Orban is a pawn of Putin imo. Trump seems to really like both dictators a lot. When he says stuff like this praising dictators and comparing himself to them it is very disturbing coming from an American President. And the fact that his supporters seem to like the idea is even scarier.

It’s like he’s saying dictators are great because they are strong and I am strong and should be our dictator. Please vote for me so I can end Democracy and make me rich, uh, I mean America great.

[In2ition]

So, in you opinion he's a dictator, but offer no reason he is one. I'm trying to figure out your criteria for calling him a dictator. Calling him a pawn of Putin is just some silly talking point without substance.

At least point out journalists that he's jailed and killed that were critical of him. Or, how he's shut down churches and rounded up citizens or stopped elections or something.

[Nodack]

Hmm, I guess I will have to find dozens of articles from major media sites backing up my claim. Would that satisfy you or will you consider them all fake deep state media sources and point to some dude on X who says Putin and Orban are pillars of democracy?

Anyone who has ever threatened to run against Putin has been poisoned, fell off a high rise or just disappeared. I think a majority of the planet would agree elections in Russia are a joke.

Orban declared a Covid emergency and claimed they can’t hold elections as long as the Covid pandemic is raging and therefore he will remain in power indefinitely and there will be no elections.

[In2ition]

I'm asking about Orban and Hungary. Please explain how Orban is a dictator. And I don't need dozens of articles, just your explanation and examples of how Hungary is under a dictatorship.

I even tried to help you out by offering examples of what a dictator would do. This shouldn't be hard, as you believe it's widely known as fact. I'm not trying to put you or Mori on the spot or make you look bad, Nodack.

[Nodack]

https://www.electoralintegrityproject.c ... ection-day
A free and fair election requires a context where – among other things – political parties and candidates can register and campaign freely, information is available for public deliberation, and votes are fairly translated into seats. These factors enable citizens to choose (and change) their government freely. However, these principles are under threat in many countries by populist authoritarian regimes that gain and maintain control through the manipulation of the media and autocratic legalism. The latter phenomenon is exemplified by the democratic façade created by leaders such as Viktor Orbán in Hungary, in an attempt to legitimize their regime. These leaders undermine democracy legally, make changes underneath the surface, and remove or control key democratic institutions and procedures. This undermines citizens' ability to make informed choices, rendering the election process a mere façade for the biases and manipulations behind the scenes. While election day itself might be mostly free of irregularities, especially since 2012, it is in the pre-voting phase where biases and manipulation are rooted.[

In 2022, the European Parliament deemed Hungary undemocratic, assigning the label of electoral autocracy to its regime./i]


The Guardian view on Hungary’s election: a dismal day for democracy
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -democracy

MEPs: Hungary can no longer be considered a full democracy
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... -democracy

In Hungary, Viktor Orban Remakes an Election to His Liking
The populist prime minister, a hero to many American conservatives, has changed voting rules and legalized ‘voter tourism’ as he stands for re-election
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/31/worl ... ction.html


Dr Parvdavi, who is co-chair of the Hungarian Helsinki Committee - a human rights monitoring group - said "very serious violations" of democratic norms have been documented against Mr Orban's regime.
"Over the past four years what has happened in Hungary is a solidifying of undemocratic practices," she added. "It (the report) emphasises the ongoing and almost permanent nature of this democratic backsliding."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62925460
Hungarian civil liberties groups have welcomed a new EU report that says the country cannot be considered a full democracy. "Over the past four years what has happened in Hungary is a solidifying of undemocratic practices," she added. "It (the report) emphasises the ongoing and almost permanent nature of this democratic backsliding." The lengthy report criticised Hungary for a host of restrictions on human rights and democratic practices. He said the Hungarian government has altered rules around judicial appointments to fill vacancies with political appointees, influenced the public broadcaster to publish "biased" news and attacked the rights of minorities.

Hungary: From Championship of Democratization to Hybrid Regime of Electoral Autocracy
https://www.democratic-erosion.com/2023 ... autocracy/
Once described as the champion of the third wave of democratization in Europe, Hungary has become a pioneer of democratic backsliding. The concept of democratic backsliding refers to the incremental weakening of democratic institutions, procedures, and norms by the ruling party or government. In Hungary, democratic backsliding has been a prominent issue since the government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban was elected in 2010. Hungarian experience is marked as one of the cases where the level of democratic backsliding is far unseen in the European Union (EU).

[Nodack]

I see Trump and the GOP trying these very same things to undermine our Democracy.

[Nodack]

Was reading up on this a little. Hungary and the Ukraine are not friends. That would explain some of why Hungary has ignored NATO and has embraced Putin’s war. Also they are pretty dependent on Russia for fuel and don’t want to ruffle their feathers. Hungary/Orban are not fans of the US either so they have chosen to support Putin instead of Ukraine.

The United States’ ambassador to Hungary sharply criticized Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán for disregarding the country’s alliance with NATO, describing him as a leader who “embraces” Russian President Vladimir Putin.
https://www.politico.eu/article/us-amba ... over-nato/


Putin’s buddy Orbán pushes EU to the brink over Ukraine
https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimi ... raine-aid/
Some EU diplomats interpret Orbán’s threats as a strategy to raise pressure on the European Commission, which is holding back €13 billion in EU funds for Hungary over concerns that the country is falling foul of the EU’s standards on rule of law.

Others however said it’s a mistake not to look beyond the immediate transactional tactics. Orbán has long been questioning the EU’s Ukraine strategy, but was largely ignored or portrayed as a puppet for Russian President Vladimir Putin. “There is no one left to talk sense into Orbán,” a third EU official said. “He is now undermining the EU from within.”

“Orbán plays the long game,” the third EU official said. “With Wilders, one or two more far-right leaders in Europe and a potential return of Trump he could soon be less isolated than we all think.”

[Mori Chu]

The spectrum between "democracy" and "dictatorship" is not all-or-nothing, black-and-white. I would classify both Turkey and Hungary as "limited democracies" or "near-dictatorships" where the current leader has captured much of the government and judicial system to make it very difficult to have an election that would ever remove him or his party. This often comes along with things like removing term limits, pardoning his cronies, etc. Orban and Ergodan are both going to be there until they die. Both countries still hold elections, but it's a foregone conclusion that the current power figures will not be removed. That's not a democracy in the traditional sense. Putin still holds elections in Russia, too, but good luck with that.

We can sit here and nitpick the line between democracy and dictatorship, if you like. But I find it very concerning that Trump so openly admires these kinds of "strongmen" who entrench their power and never leave. Trump has also said he'd be a dictator on day one if elected. Maybe you think he's joking about that, but I choose to take people seriously when they say frightening things like that.

[Superbone]

So, in you opinion he's a dictator, but offer no reason he is one. I'm trying to figure out your criteria for calling him a dictator. Calling him a pawn of Putin is just some silly talking point without substance.

At least point out journalists that he's jailed and killed that were critical of him. Or, how he's shut down churches and rounded up citizens or stopped elections or something.

You could do a little research yourself, buddy. And not just stuff with sirens and all caps.

[In2ition]

Thanks for those articles Dack, and offering your opinion Mori and Superbone. Mori, you have valid points on the spectrum of democracy to dictatorship. Superbone, haha, you're funny.

So after reading these, from what I could tell, I think there has been some jerrymandering going on(which both parties do in the US) and some vague talk of undermining checks and balances in the power of institutions that offer checks and balances. The electoralintegrityproject arcticle gave a little more substance. I think there are some good points there, where it offers no viable opposition to gain traction to organize or have equal access to put forward their points of view before the election. you have to be able to have some type of valid opposition voice to allow to get organized if you want to be in some type of valid democracy.

As far as the election itself goes, it said it did them well and fair. It was just about leading up to Election day. I was expecting some type of Castro or Hussein type regime where the people are truly suffering, not allowed to leave, families being targeted as enemies of the state, gulags, and the such, but nothing of the sort is actually happening. As far as the EU is concerned, it sounded like the EU is upset that he isn't in lockstep with their agenda.

I would say that Trump praises Orban, as he thinks that Orban is looking out for the Hungarian citizens, whereas the EU is not. He doesn't just go along with their forced immigration policies, insane policies on getting rid of energy sources to keep his country warm in the winter, or insane policies of getting rid of farming, which doesn't help his citizens at all. Hungary has the lowest amount of rape and murder of the countries in the EU, so it's fair to say it's one of the safest in Europe. When the citizens feel safe and free to thrive and they can do more to improve their lives and the economy, imo.

[Nodack]

I don’t care what we call it. I guess most are settling on Autocracy as the word we call what right wing strong men are doing all over the world. Russia, Hungary, Israel and the GOP in the US.

From above again.

However, these principles are under threat in many countries by populist authoritarian regimes that gain and maintain control through the manipulation of the media and autocratic legalism. The latter phenomenon is exemplified by the democratic façade created by leaders such as Viktor Orbán in Hungary, in an attempt to legitimize their regime. These leaders undermine democracy legally, make changes underneath the surface, and remove or control key democratic institutions and procedures. This undermines citizens' ability to make informed choices, rendering the election process a mere façade for the biases and manipulations behind the scenes. While election day itself might be mostly free of irregularities, especially since 2012, it is in the pre-voting phase where biases and manipulation are rooted.

In 2022, the European Parliament deemed Hungary undemocratic, assigning the label of electoral autocracy to its regime./i]

I see it every day. Trump and the GOP trashing all of our US institutions from top to bottom. Cause distrust in the system? Check. The media is fake and evil except ours. Check.