Phx-Suns.Net

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Some juicy quotes in here from Gerald Green about Hornacek and the FO.

“Jeff was really good in Phoenix. Only thing with Jeff, to me, is he didn’t control that team,” Gerald Green, who played under Hornacek for two seasons in Phoenix, told the Daily News. “He had to listen to the front office guys a lot. And by him having to do that, it messed up his coaching style, messed up his groove....He wasn’t really controlling the team. I think if you let Jeff have more control of the team as far as letting him calling his own plays and letting him play who he feels like he should play, he'd do great.”

“First year, the front office really wasn’t being as in control as they were the second year,” Green told The News. "The first year they kind of let us play because they thought we were going to be sorry anyway. Then they realized we weren’t sorry, and they started to take control of the team instead of letting Jeff do what he did the first year.”

Ouch.

Well, Jeff chose his current job pretty poorly if that was the problem here.

That was my initial reaction as well. He went into that situation knowing full well what it was.

I'm not saying he's wrong but Gerald isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Also could be looking for a reason he sucked that next season with Jeff in charge.

Hopefully whoever we hire to replace Watson doesn't hear this.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Hopefully whoever we hire to replace Watson doesn't hear this.

You mean after Watson finishes one of the longest coaching tenures in Phoenix Suns history? I don't like to look that far into the future.

Split T wrote:
I think Ball/Booker/Bender/Chriss is a good core, but I think it's missing one piece. Probably a defensive stud, cuz those 4 arent exactly goint to scare anyone defensively.

Bender sucks bro - everything is pointing to him being a bust unless he can learn to hit the three (which he hasn't been able to do ever in his career).

*Everything being defined as statistics, as opposed to the eye test where he might not look like a bust yet, as I thought... but the stats are so heavily against him at this point you'd be crazy to ignore them.

3rdside wrote:

Split T wrote:
I think Ball/Booker/Bender/Chriss is a good core, but I think it's missing one piece. Probably a defensive stud, cuz those 4 arent exactly goint to scare anyone defensively.

Bender sucks bro - everything is pointing to him being a bust unless he can learn to hit the three (which he hasn't been able to do ever in his career).

Bro.

Lol, bro - this one's worth a wager if you care to, my good man?

The guy might pass the eye test, as I thought he does - he looks agile enough, is long, can shoot the three can pass etc etc but.... he's stiff as a board on offense and that's never going to change no matter how much time he's given.

So he can really only be a 3 and D guy, as far as I can tell, and he really hasn't shown anything that he can shoot the three: Pre-NBA he's career <.300%, and one year in the NBA he's at .314%.

While Chriss is only marginally better in the NBA at .318%, he at least was a career .350% 3pt shooter in college which gives me way more hope that he'll develop into a shooter than will Bender.


Running comparisons on PER ratings (realise these are flawed but there is still a strong (reasonably strong?) correlation between it, and a players general 'ability'), he is literally among the worst rookies ever to play in the NBA (ranked for MP > 500 mins):


1. Amongst 2016 rookies:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... r_by_asc=Y


2. Amongst all rookies ever:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per


3. Amongst all rookies ever listed at 7ft or over:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per


4. Amongst all players ever rookie or otherwise:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per


In support of Bender:

- PER is only one stat but there's nothing in Bender's stat line that you can look at and say anything positive about, at all.
-he's the youngest player in the league (so many arguments against this mattering)
- he hasn't physically matured yet (he was playing pro ball for a couple years)
- in the lists above he's at the low end of minutes played (507) whereas others have played as much as 1800 minutes (that's a massive outlier though).
- if he can hit the 3 then he's un-guardable.

He has to develop the 3 ball to succeed, but there is nothing really to suggest he will.

I didn't originate these stats by the way, ripped them off ASFN, and just to be clear this isn't proof he's gonna suck it's just a balance of probabilities for me; he's probably gonna suck unless he can improve his 3pt shooting, and the PER stats suggest he's swimming against a vast ocean of garbage to prove otherwise.

You're right, bender looks bad statistically, but I'm withholding judgement. He's the youngest player in the league, he got very spotty minutes, and I don't think we played to his strengths.

Bender profiles as a role player. He's not a primary ball handler like ulis and he's not going to give you flashy displays of athleticism like Chriss or Jones Jr. He's going to do a little bit of everything. Move the ball on offense, rebound a bit, play versatile defense, create mismatches on offense and hit open shots. We've really only let him be a spot up shooter on offense to this point. He hasn't been great, but I think he'll be at least an average(36%) threat from 3.

Defensively he's shown promise as a versatile defender who can step out on the perimeter to defend, but also provide some rim protection. I'd like to see us get him a little more involved in the offense these last two games. Get him the ball in the post if he's got a little guy on him or get him on the move from the perimeter against a bigger guy. In both cases I think he has the awareness to find the open man if the defense swings towards him. We did post him up a couple times against golden state when he had a wing on him and I think bender scored both times.

Bender has played a grand total of 36 minutes since the All-Star Game.

So I don;t think any of us really know how good he's going to be. He certainly does have some impressive tools for being as big as he is.

I'm kinda hoping he fills out and can be a high post center for us. He's not jokic, but he's got some passing ability and shooting ability. Jokic is much more skilled in the post, but if bender could just be able to hit an 18 foot shot from the top of the key consistently, find cutters, maybe some hi lo action with Chriss and stretch out to the top of the arc three from time to time, we might have something. Not sure if his frame can hold the weight to be a full time 5 though.

Split T wrote:You're right, bender looks bad statistically, but I'm withholding judgement. He's the youngest player in the league, he got very spotty minutes, and I don't think we played to his strengths.

Bender profiles as a role player. He's not a primary ball handler like ulis and he's not going to give you flashy displays of athleticism like Chriss or Jones Jr. He's going to do a little bit of everything. Move the ball on offense, rebound a bit, play versatile defense, create mismatches on offense and hit open shots. We've really only let him be a spot up shooter on offense to this point. He hasn't been great, but I think he'll be at least an average(36%) threat from 3.

Defensively he's shown promise as a versatile defender who can step out on the perimeter to defend, but also provide some rim protection. I'd like to see us get him a little more involved in the offense these last two games. Get him the ball in the post if he's got a little guy on him or get him on the move from the perimeter against a bigger guy. In both cases I think he has the awareness to find the open man if the defense swings towards him. We did post him up a couple times against golden state when he had a wing on him and I think bender scored both times.

Honestly i think even that's too much of an ask - Dennis Schroeder is just about the only player in those four lists attached who's turned into anything good and he shot .238% from 3 his first season in the NBA, but is a career .331% shooter (.341 on 290 attempts last year though), this after shooting 34% in college.

Bender's got the mechanics so maybe he just needs the confidence....but yeah, that's a big ask.

The Bobster wrote:Bender has played a grand total of 36 minutes since the All-Star Game.

So I don;t think any of us really know how good he's going to be. He certainly does have some impressive tools for being as big as he is.

Largely agree but if you're a betting man and you're looking at those numbers you're not exactly filled with confidence, small sample size or other wise.

3rdside wrote:

Split T wrote:
I think Ball/Booker/Bender/Chriss is a good core, but I think it's missing one piece. Probably a defensive stud, cuz those 4 arent exactly goint to scare anyone defensively.

Bender sucks bro - everything is pointing to him being a bust unless he can learn to hit the three (which he hasn't been able to do ever in his career).

The idea that a player can't improve his three point shooting seems odd. Not everyone is Archie Goodwin.

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamece ... rview.html

Look under accumulated stats. The FIBA 3pt isn't as long but this shows he hasn't always been a bad shooter.