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specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:48 pm

Ayton is the most talented big man in the league in the post IMO. His footwork and touch are incredible. Everything with him is desire and aggression.

You could be right.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:48 pm

Ayton is the most talented big man in the league in the post IMO. His footwork and touch are incredible. Everything with him is desire and aggression.

He needs to look shot first every time he touches the ball below the dotted line.

Was it me or did Booker add the step-back? This was the first game of the year I was able to watch.

He’s done it in the past, just not very often. Maybe he’ll incorporate it more this year.

I've been super busy friends, so I've only been reading the last page of these threads. I did watch the games, though.

Y'all have probably said this stuff, so lemme just say that I totally agree.

The push by Lebron would have been a flagrant if a Sun had pushed a Laker like that.
Devin Booker is not fucking around this season. Not that he ever has, but damn, his conditioning and focus in this short preseason is crazy good.
Bridges and Carter have been really good. I hope they can keep to this level of play when the competition steps it up.
Payne will have his ups and downs, but it looks like Monty is the perfect coach to harness that talent. I think things will be rocky with him, but that he will improve as the season goes on.
I'm expecting a lot of games like this from Chris Paul. I hope I'm wrong.
I still really want another big and another initiator.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:48 pm

Ayton is the most talented big man in the league in the post IMO. His footwork and touch are incredible. Everything with him is desire and aggression.

I get that Ayton has unique 2-way potential, but Embiid, KAT, and Jokic are really freaking talented. I get we're not judging this by actual production, but still, I have a hard time saying definitively that Ayton is more talented than any of those guys.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:20 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:48 pm

Ayton is the most talented big man in the league in the post IMO. His footwork and touch are incredible. Everything with him is desire and aggression.

I get that Ayton has unique 2-way potential, but Embiid, KAT, and Jokic are really freaking talented. I get we're not judging this by actual production, but still, I have a hard time saying definitively that Ayton is more talented than any of those guys.

In the post.

Embiid is extremely overrated IMO.

Jokic is talented as is KAT, but they’re more perimeter oriented for the most part. Aytons footwork and touch is elite. When he actually posts up and does fadeaways or hooks it is a thing of beauty.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:20 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:20 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:48 pm

Ayton is the most talented big man in the league in the post IMO. His footwork and touch are incredible. Everything with him is desire and aggression.

I get that Ayton has unique 2-way potential, but Embiid, KAT, and Jokic are really freaking talented. I get we're not judging this by actual production, but still, I have a hard time saying definitively that Ayton is more talented than any of those guys.

In the post.

Embiid is extremely overrated IMO.

Jokic is talented as is KAT, but they’re more perimeter oriented for the most part. Aytons footwork and touch is elite. When he actually posts up and does fadeaways or hooks it is a thing of beauty.

Jokic takes +60% of his shots in the paint.

Jokic is more talented in a basketball skills sense and savvy than any of those guys. His post moves and IQ are off the charts. To do what he does without the athletic talent is incredible.

Yeah, I would take him over all of those guys no question.

I don’t deny Jockitch is the better player. I just think DA is the more talented back to the basket player when he actually decides to try. Production is a different story.

Oatmeal wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:41 am

Jokic is more talented in a basketball skills sense and savvy than any of those guys. His post moves and IQ are off the charts. To do what he does without the athletic talent is incredible.

The reason he can do all that is specifically because he doesn't have the athleticism.

HYPOTHETICALLY!, Ayton is stronger than almost every center, quicker than almost every center, and taller than players that play the center position. In theory, WITH AGGRESSION!, he should be able to overpower/outsize, or out quick any player. That's where MY frustration comes from.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:07 pm

I don’t deny Jockitch is the better player. I just think DA is the more talented back to the basket player when he actually decides to try. Production is a different story.

Jokic is actually the best post-up player in the NBA. Have you watched Ayton post up? The theoretical doesn’t match the actual. To me, he has very few moves when he gets the ball there. No drop-step. Not good at backing players down confidently. It’s turn-and-face, jab-step, middie or the turnaround. The stats bear it out as well.

Can't play in the post if you wont lean in to the defender.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:43 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:07 pm

I don’t deny Jockitch is the better player. I just think DA is the more talented back to the basket player when he actually decides to try. Production is a different story.

Jokic is actually the best post-up player in the NBA. Have you watched Ayton post up? The theoretical doesn’t match the actual. To me, he has very few moves when he gets the ball there. No drop-step. Not good at backing players down confidently. It’s turn-and-face, jab-step, middie or the turnaround. The stats bear it out as well.

I disagree. He has a hook shot, a spin move, a fadeaway, and can put it on the floor in traffic. Watch one of his highlight reels from last year. He really can do it all when he wants too. That’s the problem. Hopefully Chris Paul can help him get over the passiveness he has.

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:42 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:43 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:07 pm

I don’t deny Jockitch is the better player. I just think DA is the more talented back to the basket player when he actually decides to try. Production is a different story.

Jokic is actually the best post-up player in the NBA. Have you watched Ayton post up? The theoretical doesn’t match the actual. To me, he has very few moves when he gets the ball there. No drop-step. Not good at backing players down confidently. It’s turn-and-face, jab-step, middie or the turnaround. The stats bear it out as well.

I disagree. He has a hook shot, a spin move, a fadeaway, and can put it on the floor in traffic. Watch one of his highlight reels from last year. He really can do it all when he wants too. That’s the problem. Hopefully Chris Paul can help him get over the passiveness he has.

20 players averaged 4 post ups/game last year. Jokic was 4th in FG% at 53.5% on much higher volume than the 3 above him, without even mentioning his post-passing. Deandre was 18th (44.1%). I don't need to watch the highlight reels. I've watched every post-up possession of his NBA career. He can do it once in a while, but he's not consistent there at all.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:39 pm

SunsRIt wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:42 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:43 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:07 pm

I don’t deny Jockitch is the better player. I just think DA is the more talented back to the basket player when he actually decides to try. Production is a different story.

Jokic is actually the best post-up player in the NBA. Have you watched Ayton post up? The theoretical doesn’t match the actual. To me, he has very few moves when he gets the ball there. No drop-step. Not good at backing players down confidently. It’s turn-and-face, jab-step, middie or the turnaround. The stats bear it out as well.

I disagree. He has a hook shot, a spin move, a fadeaway, and can put it on the floor in traffic. Watch one of his highlight reels from last year. He really can do it all when he wants too. That’s the problem. Hopefully Chris Paul can help him get over the passiveness he has.

20 players averaged 4 post ups/game last year. Jokic was 4th in FG% at 53.5% on much higher volume than the 3 above him, without even mentioning his post-passing. Deandre was 18th (44.1%). I don't need to watch the highlight reels. I've watched every post-up possession of his NBA career. He can do it once in a while, but he's not consistent there at all.

BUT if you watch his highlight reels he shoots 100%.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:39 pm

Jokic is actually the best post-up player in the NBA. Have you watched Ayton post up? The theoretical doesn’t match the actual. To me, he has very few moves when he gets the ball there. No drop-step. Not good at backing players down confidently. It’s turn-and-face, jab-step, middie or the turnaround. The stats bear it out as well.

This is absolutely true. He is money when gets the ball close to the basket while facing it, and the fadeaway truly resembles Ewing, but you are not the best post player when you can't put the ball on the floor and you don't have advanced post moves. The area where Ayton has a case for best in the league among true centers, in my opinion, is his ability to stay in front of people in the perimeter after a switch. Then he is good/very good at other things, and has a chance at greatness, but he needs to use his brain and develop.