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Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 10:03 am
by Mori Chu
It sounds like Fizdale is not going to stay on after all? I don't think that's a huge loss. Never been a huge fan of his ever since "Take that for data" which I thought was a moronic thing to say.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 10:23 am
by TOO
He'd probably have been the perfect coach for the ego twins, we don't need 3s, we can make long 2, data schmata.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 10:45 am
by Superbone
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:03 am
It sounds like Fizdale is not going to stay on after all? I don't think that's a huge loss. Never been a huge fan of his ever since "Take that for data" which I thought was a moronic thing to say.
They just want his wife around.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:04 am
by Drewsprocket
TOO wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:23 am
He'd probably have been the perfect coach for the ego twins, we don't need 3s, we can make long 2, data schmata.
I don’t think it fair to label Book an ego twin after he stuck through the worst stretch of ownership, management, and coaching in the history of this team’s franchise. As far as I’m concerned, he deserves to have big opinions and be considered with any decisions made Suns basketball related. He never says too much in the media, never shows himself to be anything but a hyper focused basketball player who wants to win. And at the end of the day, he has been the biggest advocate that mgt make moves to win as best possible.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:16 am
by Cap
TOO wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:23 am
He'd probably have been the perfect coach for the ego twins, we don't need 3s, we can make long 2, data schmata.
He wasn’t saying data schmata. He was saying the relevant data for the game was, “Overall, 35 times we shot the ball in the paint, we had 15 free throws FOR THE GAME. They shot 18 times in the paint and had 32 free throws.”
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:38 am
by iLLmatic
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:22 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:15 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:39 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 3:45 pm
It’s the same exact situation as last summer. Do we hire Budenholzer (the coach with championship experience) or Billups (the coach that Durant and Booker want)?
We saw how not hiring the players’ choice went this last season. But will giving them what they want result in success?
A lot of the folks here wanted Bud when we got Monty. They ended up playing each other in the Finals. Monty went into the Buck's locker room. It's only fair that Bud comes into ours.
Plus, he's an Arizona guy from Holbrook.
Where the hell is that?
20 minutes north of Woodruff.
No idea where Woodruff is either lol.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:43 am
by Superbone
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:22 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:15 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:39 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 3:45 pm
It’s the same exact situation as last summer. Do we hire Budenholzer (the coach with championship experience) or Billups (the coach that Durant and Booker want)?
We saw how not hiring the players’ choice went this last season. But will giving them what they want result in success?
A lot of the folks here wanted Bud when we got Monty. They ended up playing each other in the Finals. Monty went into the Buck's locker room. It's only fair that Bud comes into ours.
Plus, he's an Arizona guy from Holbrook.
Where the hell is that?
20 minutes north of Woodruff.
No idea where Woodruff is either lol.
A town of about 5,000 located three hours northeast of Phoenix.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:45 am
by JeremyG
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:22 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:15 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:39 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 3:45 pm
It’s the same exact situation as last summer. Do we hire Budenholzer (the coach with championship experience) or Billups (the coach that Durant and Booker want)?
We saw how not hiring the players’ choice went this last season. But will giving them what they want result in success?
A lot of the folks here wanted Bud when we got Monty. They ended up playing each other in the Finals. Monty went into the Buck's locker room. It's only fair that Bud comes into ours.
Plus, he's an Arizona guy from Holbrook.
Where the hell is that?
20 minutes north of Woodruff.
No idea where Woodruff is either lol.
That was the point haha.
But Holbrook is actually the county seat of Navajo County. It’s right near the Navajo Nation right off of I-40, near Petrified Forest National Park.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:47 am
by Superbone
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:45 am
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:22 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:15 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:39 pm
A lot of the folks here wanted Bud when we got Monty. They ended up playing each other in the Finals. Monty went into the Buck's locker room. It's only fair that Bud comes into ours.
Plus, he's an Arizona guy from Holbrook.
Where the hell is that?
20 minutes north of Woodruff.
No idea where Woodruff is either lol.
That was the point haha.
But Holbrook is actually the county seat of Navajo County. It’s right near the Navajo Nation right off of I-40, near Petrified Forest National Park.
I got a kick out of your Woodruff reply as even I, a native Arizonan, hadn't heard of Woodruff.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 11:51 am
by Superbone
Phoenix Suns had no choice but to fire Frank Vogel, but don’t let owner Mat Ishbia off the hook
https://theathletic.com/5483120/2024/05 ... at-ishbia/
Decades ago, when this franchise was in its infancy, then-GM Jerry Colangelo interviewed three head-coaching candidates. The first was K.C. Jones, a former player and eight-time NBA champion. The second was University of Washington head coach Tex Winter, inventor of the triple-post offense. The third was Kansas State coach Cotton Fitzsimmons. Of the three, Fitzsimmons stood out as the best communicator, the type who could adjust to a roster, talented or flawed, and get the best out of it. He got the job, and eventually, through two stints in Phoenix, became one of the best coaches in franchise history.
That’s what Phoenix needs. A head coach who can connect. He’ll need a strong staff that can help the Suns defensively. He’ll need to convince role players to buy in and do the dirty work. But more than anything, the new head coach will need to connect with Booker, Durant and Beal and maximize their offensive potential. It may not get Phoenix a championship, but it’s how these Suns are built. And for now, it’s their only hope.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 12:07 pm
by TOO
Getting role guys to do the dirty work would be something else, only guy who did that was Okogie, the rest were a pupu platter on that end.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 7:55 pm
by iLLmatic
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:45 am
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 11:38 am
JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:22 pm
iLLmatic wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:15 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:39 pm
A lot of the folks here wanted Bud when we got Monty. They ended up playing each other in the Finals. Monty went into the Buck's locker room. It's only fair that Bud comes into ours.
Plus, he's an Arizona guy from Holbrook.
Where the hell is that?
20 minutes north of Woodruff.
No idea where Woodruff is either lol.
That was the point haha.
But Holbrook is actually the county seat of Navajo County. It’s right near the Navajo Nation right off of I-40, near Petrified Forest National Park.
I know. I’m just being an ass.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 8:23 am
by INFORMER
Some interesting points here:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/
Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.
None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.
After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:24 am
by Mori Chu
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:23 am
Some interesting points here:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/
Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.
None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.
After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.
The team we put on the court this year certainly bears almost no resemblance to Vogel's description.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:30 am
by AmareIsGod
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:23 am
Some interesting points here:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/
Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.
None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.
After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.
That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:37 am
by Mori Chu
I don't blame Beal for the team's woes. But certainly building your team around three offense-first veteran stars, two of them old and/or injury-prone, and then filling out the rest of the roster with offense-only gunners isn't a recipe for a "scrappy as hell" team that will "play with pace."
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:51 am
by TOO
Vogel realistically never had a chance once Ayton was moved.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:58 am
by INFORMER
AmareIsGod wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:30 am
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:23 am
Some interesting points here:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/
Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.
None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.
After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.
That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.
Chris Paul's contract was key to creating flexibility to bring in guys to help create that sort of team. The Beal trade took away the cap exceptions and committed the Suns to three superstars, and no point guard. The Suns weren't going to be able to play with pace consistently without a pace-setter, and none of their superstars can set the pace. Having those three guys on the court for the majority of the game means you only have two spots for players that will actually play the way Vogel was describing. That wasn't going to get it done.
Besides banking on minimum deal players, the Suns only had one other way to bring in talent to be able to play the way Vogel was describing, and that was dealing Ayton. Unfortunately, the return wasn't great. I would say Allen fits the mold of what Vogel was describing, but that's about it.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 10:00 am
by INFORMER
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:37 am
I don't blame Beal for the team's woes. But certainly building your team around three offense-first veteran stars, two of them old and/or injury-prone, and then filling out the rest of the roster with offense-only gunners isn't a recipe for a "scrappy as hell" team that will "play with pace."
Exactly. It isn't about blaming Beal; it's understanding the effect of the deal that brought him here and the impact of having two of your three best players playing the same position, plus Beal's massive contract.
Re: Suns Fire Frank Vogel
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 11:19 am
by Superbone
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:24 am
INFORMER wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 8:23 am
Some interesting points here:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/
Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.
None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.
After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.
The team we put on the court this year certainly bears almost no resemblance to Vogel's description.
Right there shows why it was right to fire him. He did not come through on his number one goal. Of course, it's not all his fault if he isn't given the players to do it but we didn't even see the effort. So he wasn't getting through to these guys.