Phx-Suns.Net

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:13 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:08 am

I might swap Book and CP3 at those spots but splitting hairs.

I was pleasantly surprised at Booker in the top 20. He’s starting to get the national recognition. At the top of the Murray/Mitchell/Beal/Booker group, where he should be.

Where's Doncic at?

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:56 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:16 am

Any issue with the 14–15 guys ahead of our suns?

In some order:

Lebron, Giannis, Luka, Dame, Curry, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Jokic, AD, Tatum, Butler, Bam, Embiid, Simmons*

*Simmons is ahead of Booker, but not CP3

Some of these guys don't pass the Bill Simmons trade value test. That is, if the 76ers called up the Suns and said, "Let's trade Ben Simmons for Devin Booker straight up," (ignoring cap issues), would Phoenix say yes? No way. I also think the same is true for Tatum and maybe Bam.

From which perspective? There is no way Boston would trade Book for Tatum, or the 76ers trade Simmons for Book, whether the Suns wanted to or not. Teams usually over-value their own guy.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:57 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:13 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:08 am

I might swap Book and CP3 at those spots but splitting hairs.

I was pleasantly surprised at Booker in the top 20. He’s starting to get the national recognition. At the top of the Murray/Mitchell/Beal/Booker group, where he should be.

Where's Doncic at?

They haven’t revealed the top 10 yet, he’ll be in there somewhere.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:06 am

Mori Chu wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:56 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:16 am

Any issue with the 14–15 guys ahead of our suns?

In some order:

Lebron, Giannis, Luka, Dame, Curry, KD, Kawhi, Harden, Jokic, AD, Tatum, Butler, Bam, Embiid, Simmons*

*Simmons is ahead of Booker, but not CP3

Some of these guys don't pass the Bill Simmons trade value test. That is, if the 76ers called up the Suns and said, "Let's trade Ben Simmons for Devin Booker straight up," (ignoring cap issues), would Phoenix say yes? No way. I also think the same is true for Tatum and maybe Bam.

From which perspective? There is no way Boston would trade Book for Tatum, or the 76ers trade Simmons for Book, whether the Suns wanted to or not. Teams usually over-value their own guy.

I think Philly might make that trade. Booker is a better fit with Embiid than Simmons is, but they just made changes to the roster to make Embiid/Simmons work. They won’t do it until this proves to not work.

But ya, Boston isn’t trading Tatum for Book. That’s actually one where on paper, the suns should probably do it. Tatum is a phenomenal scorer, he’s younger, he’s bigger, and he’s turned into a very good defender. The playmaking isn’t at Booker’s level, but he’s not a non-playmaker.

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

Honestly Ben Simmons is a glorified Boris Diaw. He’s a good player, but until he develops a dependable offensive game he is just a role player. How you can say a role player is a top 15 franchise guy is beyond me.

Pre- CP3 I would have traded DA for him but if they called for Booker I would have hung up immediately.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

If you made every NBA enter a draft, and the entire league started over, there is no way Zion goes outside the top 25. And yeah, Simmons and Tatum and Jimmy would be picked ahead of Book.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:32 pm

Honestly Ben Simmons is a glorified Boris Diaw. He’s a good player, but until he develops a dependable offensive game he is just a role player. How you can say a role player is a top 15 franchise guy is beyond me.

Pre- CP3 I would have traded DA for him but if they called for Booker I would have hung up immediately.

Boris Diaw was a better shooter than Simmons.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:40 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

If you made every NBA enter a draft, and the entire league started over, there is no way Zion goes outside the top 25. And yeah, Simmons and Tatum and Jimmy would be picked ahead of Book.

Sure for Zion that is based on pure potential and not production.

You are drunk Indy. That is the only explanation I have for you thinking Butler and Simmons would be picked ahead of Book. No way old man.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:45 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:40 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

If you made every NBA enter a draft, and the entire league started over, there is no way Zion goes outside the top 25. And yeah, Simmons and Tatum and Jimmy would be picked ahead of Book.

Sure for Zion that is based on pure potential and not production.

You are drunk Indy. That is the only explanation I have for you thinking Butler and Simmons would be picked ahead of Book. No way old man.

I wish! But it is late Q4 and I have too much work for that!

I wouldn't take either of them ahead of him, but I am a biased Suns fan. I think their standing around the league is high.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:45 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:40 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

If you made every NBA enter a draft, and the entire league started over, there is no way Zion goes outside the top 25. And yeah, Simmons and Tatum and Jimmy would be picked ahead of Book.

Sure for Zion that is based on pure potential and not production.

You are drunk Indy. That is the only explanation I have for you thinking Butler and Simmons would be picked ahead of Book. No way old man.

You’re drastically underrating Simmons. He’s got a severe limitation but he’s a terrific defender.

I doubt there is a single GM in the league that would put Mitchel above Simmons in an anonymous survey. And probably not many for Book>Simmons.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:32 pm

Honestly Ben Simmons is a glorified Boris Diaw. He’s a good player, but until he develops a dependable offensive game he is just a role player. How you can say a role player is a top 15 franchise guy is beyond me.

Pre- CP3 I would have traded DA for him but if they called for Booker I would have hung up immediately.

Ya he’s not Boris Diaw at all, you’re severely underestimating Simmons. Yes he can’t shoot, but he’s a 17/9/9 guy who is a legitimate elite, DPOY candidate level, defender. I’m not saying he’s definitely ahead of Booker, but they are right there together.

Almost everyone overvalues potential in sports. Especially when it's "their guy". We've seen it so many times recently with guys like Chirss and Bender, and now with Ayton.

At some point, the successful decision makers have to look at what a guy is and not what he could be, and it's usually a pretty big reason why they're successful. Pat Riley for example, he's not perfect at the player personnel part of his job, but he doesn't put up with bullshit. He's set up a system and culture in Miami that rewards players who actively put in the work, not for their potential to do the work based on their talents or physical gifts.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:35 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

I think we know Saucy's top 15 list.
1) Kelly Oubre Jr as water
2) Kelly Oubre Jr doing push ups
3) Kelly Oubre Jr head bobbing
4) Kelly Oubre Jr wearing stirrups
5-15) Who cares?!? Didn't you see 1-4?

Speak of the (handsome) devil

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:02 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:35 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:27 pm

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:35 am

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

I think we know Saucy's top 15 list.
1) Kelly Oubre Jr as water
2) Kelly Oubre Jr doing push ups
3) Kelly Oubre Jr head bobbing
4) Kelly Oubre Jr wearing stirrups
5-15) Who cares?!? Didn't you see 1-4?

Lol I thought you’re too busy to drink, get back to work.

In no particular order:

Lebron
Giannis
AD
KD
Steph
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Dame
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Luka
KAT
Trae

Based on my model of players with more than 1000 minutes last year, here's the top 20 players, 1 to 20.

Giannis Antetokounmpo
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard
Luka Doncic
Joel Embiid
Chris Paul
Damian Lillard
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
Christian Wood
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Montrezl Harrell
Hassan Whiteside