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Yep, and that's assuming we even make the playoffs. Hate the move but the front office have backed themselves into such a tight corner that it's probably one of the few trades that makes sense from a business standpoint.
This is the extreme argument I've seen from just about every local media/fan account and I don't get it. It doesn't have to be feast or famine. It's not title or tank. There is a way to build properly and competitively, which we just did a few years ago. It feels like people are making this "either/or" to protect Ishbia for some weird reason. He's acting no different than Allen, Cuban, Dolan, Prokherov, Ballmer when they came into the league. "We should be on our hands and knees thanking Ish for spending like this and shouldn't take it for granted". I'd rather an owner spend wisely and build a properly balanced team that's competitive for the long haul. Maybe we'll get there after this current run.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 amThis is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.pickle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 amWe definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.
However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.
I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.
Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?
You are correctShelC wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:18 amGambo's a mouthpiece for the org and he was writing the same kind of hype stuff prior to the Nurk trade. He was saying Nurk is a defensive minded center before he walked that back. I'm sure people around the league are shaking in their boots about us getting Butler. Not saying everything he wrote isn't true, just that he's prepping fans for the trade and trying to get them on board.
I do, but not in the context of this current team. I want Beal for Butler and KD to Houston for Thompson, Eason and a pick, or to Detroit for Duren and a pick, something of that sort. I'd even offer him for DeAron Fox.INFORMER wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:51 pmI think Sauce does...Uncle_Gene wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:50 pmOut of curiosity, how many people really want Jimmy Butler in a Sun's uniform ?
Interesting.ShelC wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:30 amThis is the extreme argument I've seen from just about every local media/fan account and I don't get it. It doesn't have to be feast or famine. It's not title or tank. There is a way to build properly and competitively, which we just did a few years ago. It feels like people are making this "either/or" to protect Ishbia for some weird reason. He's acting no different than Allen, Cuban, Dolan, Prokherov, Ballmer when they came into the league. "We should be on our hands and knees thanking Ish for spending like this and shouldn't take it for granted". I'd rather an owner spend wisely and build a properly balanced team that's competitive for the long haul. Maybe we'll get there after this current run.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 amThis is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.pickle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 amWe definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.
However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.
I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.
Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?
I think we're title contenders if we somehow swap Beal and Nurkic for Butler and Portis.Split T wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:01 amI saw someone float a trade idea that had Nurk in it as well and rerouted Portis to us…
Something like Butler/Portis to Phoenix
Beal to Milwaukee
Bruce Brown, Poeltl to Miami
Middleton/Nurk to Toronto
Something like that…there was certainly some other parts…but that’s very interesting to me. I don’t even think Miami needs a pick in that trade. Toronto certainly does…they might need 2. Then Milwaukee gets one for taking Beal.
Booker/Allen/Butler/Durant/Richards
Jones/O’Neale/Dunn/Portis/Ighodora
Ok ok where we sending Royce to after that because he damn sure ain't on this team if we want to win. Have to trim the stupidSplit T wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:05 amI think that team is pretty good and well balanced. Think the 4th and 5th starters could be any of the top 9(Oso isn’t starting). I went with Grayson for the shooting, but Dunn for defense makes sense. Royce a mix of the two. Can keep Tyus if you feel we need a pg…I don’t with Booker and Jimmy out there. Could even start Portis(in place of Richards or alongside him if you want to go super big).
If Tyus goes to Miami in the trade, just put Morris in at the backup 1.
What I've seen in most arguments is that if you trade KD, you have to trade Book and that will necessitate 5 years of tanking and losing and praying for picks and young players to pan out. I'm not advocating for that and I don't think that's the only other option besides going "all in".Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:12 amInteresting.ShelC wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:30 amThis is the extreme argument I've seen from just about every local media/fan account and I don't get it. It doesn't have to be feast or famine. It's not title or tank. There is a way to build properly and competitively, which we just did a few years ago. It feels like people are making this "either/or" to protect Ishbia for some weird reason. He's acting no different than Allen, Cuban, Dolan, Prokherov, Ballmer when they came into the league. "We should be on our hands and knees thanking Ish for spending like this and shouldn't take it for granted". I'd rather an owner spend wisely and build a properly balanced team that's competitive for the long haul. Maybe we'll get there after this current run.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 amThis is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.pickle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 amWe definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.
However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.
I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.
Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?
I don't see why my take is so extreme. If we had a poll here right now, I believe the majority would be in favor of trading KD and essentially "blowing it up". Is that not the literal definition of "extreme"; completely turning over the roster in the middle of a season?
I think we should be thankful for these guys running the franchise. They're not perfect by any means, but are you really that forgetfully about where we've been as a fanbase? Is Ishbia not allowed to try his strategy after spending billions? Sure we hope he learns best practices over years of experience as an owner. Were you perfect at your job right from the start? Would you have been if you were the owner?
I don't mean to attack you at all. In fact, I welcome the passion of longtime fans like you and others. I think the message I want to convey is calm down. It may seem weird, but I think we're in a better place now than we were in 2021 as an organization. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
We’re still on the “Ishbia won’t let it happen” thing?Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 amThis is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.pickle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 amWe definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.
However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.
I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.
Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?
What is happening? They lose a pick in the late teens to twenties in the next draft?Cap wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:41 amWe’re still on the “Ishbia won’t let it happen” thing? It’s happening now.Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 amThis is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.pickle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 amWe definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.
However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.
I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.
Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?
There in lies the crux of my point; this shit isn't easy. Just trade this guy or that guy and "build around Booker" fantastical.ShelC wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:40 amWhat I've seen in most arguments is that if you trade KD, you have to trade Book and that will necessitate 5 years of tanking and losing and praying for picks and young players to pan out. I'm not advocating for that and I don't think that's the only other option besides going "all in".Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:12 amInteresting.Spoiler: show/hide
I don't see why my take is so extreme. If we had a poll here right now, I believe the majority would be in favor of trading KD and essentially "blowing it up". Is that not the literal definition of "extreme"; completely turning over the roster in the middle of a season?
I think we should be thankful for these guys running the franchise. They're not perfect by any means, but are you really that forgetfully about where we've been as a fanbase? Is Ishbia not allowed to try his strategy after spending billions? Sure we hope he learns best practices over years of experience as an owner. Were you perfect at your job right from the start? Would you have been if you were the owner?
I don't mean to attack you at all. In fact, I welcome the passion of longtime fans like you and others. I think the message I want to convey is calm down. It may seem weird, but I think we're in a better place now than we were in 2021 as an organization. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I don't think trading KD for picks and young players is "blowing it up". I think it's a reloading around Book that can get us back to being a young and up and coming team on the rise in a year or two, similar to where we were in the Bubble. I think that's realistic and feasible. And with Book on the roster, it will lead to others wanting to join, same as CP and KD. That's why it's important to keep a cornerstone like Book around.
Ishibia can do whatever he wants. It's his team and his money. But he's going by the "New Owner" playbook step by step and I've noted the other new owners who have tried what he's done and been unsuccessful. He literally bought a Finals team and moved it backwards by acquiring stars and spending unnecessarily. Stars don't equal titles and a high payroll doesn't equal success. It may work, but it doesn't seem to be the best strategy in today's NBA. Having the highest payroll and luxury tax for a 2nd round team won't impress me and I won't be grateful for an owner who simply has the money to pay for it. I'll be grateful for an owner willing to pay the right players at the right time who are part of a winning formula.
If we were on the cusp and needed the boost from a guy like Jimmy, I'd be all for it. If we had a fun, exciting team with good young players and vibes, I'd be excited. But this team is just a bunch of guys thrown together with no chemistry.