Phx-Suns.Net

Bridges on Old Man and the Three discussing how much every player needs to be locked in on defense against GSW with shifting defenses. It makes me wonder about his thoughts on Ayton and off-season. I hope Suns make roster decisions that really just brings in very focused players.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

I kind of don't buy this. Or at least it's not so simple. Because an Ayton trade will happen in a vacuum, it has no bearing on the other moves. If there's a trade not involving Ayton that makes us better, then make that trade and sign Ayton too. You'd be right if the other moves we made brought back a good center and then we could get pieces for Ayton that make us stronger, but I still don't know how much better we can get downgrading one starting spot and upgrading another if that upgrade is not huge.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

That’s not what I asked. Answer the question.

What’s your idea?

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:27 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

I kind of don't buy this. Or at least it's not so simple. Because an Ayton trade will happen in a vacuum, it has no bearing on the other moves. If there's a trade not involving Ayton that makes us better, then make that trade and sign Ayton too. You'd be right if the other moves we made brought back a good center and then we could get pieces for Ayton that make us stronger, but I still don't know how much better we can get downgrading one starting spot and upgrading another if that upgrade is not huge.

I don't think we need to upgrade the center position to be a better team. If a trade for Ayton brings back pieces and some of those pieces (or cap space that didn't go to Ayton) are used in a different move later, why wouldn't that matter? I don't think we should be looking at each move in a vacuum. That isn't how you build a *team*.

And this is all assuming Ayton wants to be here (and isn't just because we can offer him the most money). I will take a lesser talented player that wants to be here and doesn't have to be coddled and prodded to put forth maximum effort over a better player on paper that needs to be coaxed into playing hard. (To be clear, I am not saying this really describes Ayton because none of us really know, but it does seem this way.)

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:29 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

That’s not what I asked. Answer the question.

What’s your idea?

I think I have thrown out several ideas as a first move in this game where it looks like 85/15 Ayton will be gone by the trade deadline.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:58 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:29 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

That’s not what I asked. Answer the question.

What’s your idea?

I think I have thrown out several ideas as a first move in this game where it looks like 85/15 Ayton will be gone by the trade deadline.

You said the goal is to have it so that CP3 is not your second best player.

So what is your idea for moves that lead to DA going out and a better player than CP3 coming in? Who is that player? Because I haven’t seen you talk about anybody. Your Slovenian thirst is strong so all I’ve seen is that you want DA gone so you don’t have to think about the could’ve would’ve any longer.

I have said numerous times I don't want him gone. I would love to have him here on a contract that pays him around 25M/year. But he has said he only wants a max deal and doesn't care who gives it to him.

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:57 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:27 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Tue May 31, 2022 10:18 pm

Nobody is saying that OG will be that guy. You are just reading into it what you want so you can throw your shit over everything.

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

I kind of don't buy this. Or at least it's not so simple. Because an Ayton trade will happen in a vacuum, it has no bearing on the other moves. If there's a trade not involving Ayton that makes us better, then make that trade and sign Ayton too. You'd be right if the other moves we made brought back a good center and then we could get pieces for Ayton that make us stronger, but I still don't know how much better we can get downgrading one starting spot and upgrading another if that upgrade is not huge.

I don't think we need to upgrade the center position to be a better team. If a trade for Ayton brings back pieces and some of those pieces (or cap space that didn't go to Ayton) are used in a different move later, why wouldn't that matter? I don't think we should be looking at each move in a vacuum. That isn't how you build a *team*.

And this is all assuming Ayton wants to be here (and isn't just because we can offer him the most money). I will take a lesser talented player that wants to be here and doesn't have to be coddled and prodded to put forth maximum effort over a better player on paper that needs to be coaxed into playing hard. (To be clear, I am not saying this really describes Ayton because none of us really know, but it does seem this way.)

Because we’re so far over the cap that we can’t do anything with the salary difference between Ayton’s $30M outgoing and the ~$20M incoming. That’s why the most logical move is matching any offer and trading him mid-season if we so choose. That’s when we can recoup the most value.

None of that precludes us from packaging some players for an upgrade at the 4.

My thing is we’ve shown we can replace 80% of Ayton with minimum contract and 5 million dollar centers. If Ayton can return a player at another position that upgrades that position by more than the decrease from Ayton to say a McGee or Biyombo, it’s a win. Would OG be 120% or more of Crowder? Honestly ya I think so…but you’re still losing future value with Ayton and that’s why I’d want more in return. Siakam would be a dream because he’s 2-3x the player Crowder is.

Even with an upgrade at PF (short of KD or LBJ), I don't think it'd be wise to count on McGee and Biz (or some other minimum-ish duo) holding down the center spot over the course of a season and playoffs.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:25 am

Even with an upgrade at PF (short of KD or LBJ), I don't think it'd be wise to count on McGee and Biz (or some other minimum-ish duo) holding down the center spot over the course of a season and playoffs.

Agree. They are effective in stretches of games but neither are full season solutions to man the center spot. Teams really weren't game planning for McGee or Biz.

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:13 am

My thing is we’ve shown we can replace 80% of Ayton with minimum contract and 5 million dollar centers. If Ayton can return a player at another position that upgrades that position by more than the decrease from Ayton to say a McGee or Biyombo, it’s a win. Would OG be 120% or more of Crowder? Honestly ya I think so…but you’re still losing future value with Ayton and that’s why I’d want more in return. Siakam would be a dream because he’s 2-3x the player Crowder is.

At this point, Suns will need to flip Ayton somehow for another star. Siakam, KD, whomever…Book and CP3 need a guy who can create for himself or others. Book need a viable number 2 running mate for Book. Ayton isn’t that guy because his handles are shit and doesn’t transcend getting doubled or outsmart defenses. We’re gonna miss him next year probably, especially if Denver gets healthy and lays waste to the WC.

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:54 am

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:57 pm

Shabazz wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:27 pm

Indy wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:55 pm

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:09 am

You literally said we trade our assets into someone better than CP3.

Then you say trade DA for OG.

So which is it? What’s your idea other than to belittle?

I think it was FF that helped make this point. You are not going to get a single trade for DA that will bring back a better player. There needs to be a series of moves that gets us a player that can be part of a big 3. The time to judge Jones will be after the trade deadline, not the first day or two of free agency

I kind of don't buy this. Or at least it's not so simple. Because an Ayton trade will happen in a vacuum, it has no bearing on the other moves. If there's a trade not involving Ayton that makes us better, then make that trade and sign Ayton too. You'd be right if the other moves we made brought back a good center and then we could get pieces for Ayton that make us stronger, but I still don't know how much better we can get downgrading one starting spot and upgrading another if that upgrade is not huge.

I don't think we need to upgrade the center position to be a better team. If a trade for Ayton brings back pieces and some of those pieces (or cap space that didn't go to Ayton) are used in a different move later, why wouldn't that matter? I don't think we should be looking at each move in a vacuum. That isn't how you build a *team*.

And this is all assuming Ayton wants to be here (and isn't just because we can offer him the most money). I will take a lesser talented player that wants to be here and doesn't have to be coddled and prodded to put forth maximum effort over a better player on paper that needs to be coaxed into playing hard. (To be clear, I am not saying this really describes Ayton because none of us really know, but it does seem this way.)

Because we’re so far over the cap that we can’t do anything with the salary difference between Ayton’s $30M outgoing and the ~$20M incoming. That’s why the most logical move is matching any offer and trading him mid-season if we so choose. That’s when we can recoup the most value.

None of that precludes us from packaging some players for an upgrade at the 4.

The point about cap space is good. I was thinking capital (like picks), not just dollars.

For the last part, if some of those players/picks come in from an Ayton trade and we use them to upgrade the 4, why wouldn't that matter?

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:13 am

My thing is we’ve shown we can replace 80% of Ayton with minimum contract and 5 million dollar centers. If Ayton can return a player at another position that upgrades that position by more than the decrease from Ayton to say a McGee or Biyombo, it’s a win. Would OG be 120% or more of Crowder? Honestly ya I think so…but you’re still losing future value with Ayton and that’s why I’d want more in return. Siakam would be a dream because he’s 2-3x the player Crowder is.

He certainly would.

But it is very tricky because the difference between 80% of Ayton and 100% of Ayton is huge. When you are getting a locked in Ayton, and he is working hard on most possessions at both sides, he is a force that most teams don't have an easy answer for. You can't just double him because he is the 3rd best player on the team, meaning you are almost certain to either leave open Book/CP3, or leave very good 3pt shooters open in the corners.

Like Shel and others have said, McGee/Bizzy are not starting centers in this league for a reason. They can be very good in spurts against 2nd and 3rd units. But you can't count on them like that.

I wonder if Ayton would be open to a contract more in the 25 million per year range, but with player options after year 2? That way, if he performs like he's capable, he can exercise an early out and then really cash in. Works out for us because hopefully we get a more engaged Ayton.

wpmiller42 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:16 am

I wonder if Ayton would be open to a contract more in the 25 million per year range, but with player options after year 2? That way, if he performs like he's capable, he can exercise an early out and then really cash in. Works out for us because hopefully we get a more engaged Ayton.

He might see that as a failure for his primary goal.

Indy wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:00 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:13 am

My thing is we’ve shown we can replace 80% of Ayton with minimum contract and 5 million dollar centers. If Ayton can return a player at another position that upgrades that position by more than the decrease from Ayton to say a McGee or Biyombo, it’s a win. Would OG be 120% or more of Crowder? Honestly ya I think so…but you’re still losing future value with Ayton and that’s why I’d want more in return. Siakam would be a dream because he’s 2-3x the player Crowder is.

He certainly would.

But it is very tricky because the difference between 80% of Ayton and 100% of Ayton is huge. When you are getting a locked in Ayton, and he is working hard on most possessions at both sides, he is a force that most teams don't have an easy answer for. You can't just double him because he is the 3rd best player on the team, meaning you are almost certain to either leave open Book/CP3, or leave very good 3pt shooters open in the corners.

Like Shel and others have said, McGee/Bizzy are not starting centers in this league for a reason. They can be very good in spurts against 2nd and 3rd units. But you can't count on them like that.

We didn’t get that extra 20% this year though in the playoffs. I’d rather have someone like Biyombo or McGee for when we are running traditional rotations and then have a small ball option. We didn’t have a real small ball option this year. Normally Ayton can play against any lineup, but he didn’t make the small lineups pay this year. If we’re not getting an offensive advantage with Ayton, we might as well have a small ball C out there.

ShelC wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:25 am

Even with an upgrade at PF (short of KD or LBJ), I don't think it'd be wise to count on McGee and Biz (or some other minimum-ish duo) holding down the center spot over the course of a season and playoffs.

Ya I wouldn’t strictly count on them. Honestly OG or Siakam would probably end up playing a lot of C for me, in the playoffs at least. Saric will likely be back too. McGee and Biyombo types could handle most of the regular season minutes though. Even Jalen Smith had his moments for us.

I really like the idea of Saric playing a significant role for us next year. I think we really missed that lack of a 5 that can facilitate the offense and shoot the ball.