Phx-Suns.Net

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

In2ition wrote:I thought this was an interesting trade proposal.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2017/07/27/ ... enix-suns/

The problems I see are that New York gives up too much, basically gutting their team, but maybe they would like to do that. The other problem is that it's been reported that Melo has his heart set on Houston and refuses to waive his no trade clause for any team other than Houston. From the Suns perspective, I think they would probably do it. I'm not sure that Cleveland would do it, as they believe that they should get a Kings ransom for Kyrie.

Very nice trade. If we could do it without giving up both 2018 picks, I'd be all in.

You wouldn't give up two draft picks (one protected) for that? I don't know what to tell you.

Not that I wouldn't, but I would have to think about it. That's what makes it a nice trade and not just some fanboy dream. If we give up one fewer things, then it would be a no-brainer.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Superbone wrote: My understanding is that only the first year of Williams' deal is guaranteed.

Yep, that's what someone here said. Probably Carey.

I'm glad we aren't bidding against ourselves. There's not a big market for Len. But from his perspective, it's got to be a tough pill to swallow.

It would be nice for some team to jump in and give him a nice, low-ball, offer so he can sign, we can match, and be finished with all this. Sounds like the Suns opened actual negotiations with the QO--which is usually just a formality offer. They are waiting for a counter from the agent.

I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

You could just let the league know that you won't match an offer.

I wouldn't be mad to let him go. I wouldn't be mad to keep him at the right price and play him to his strengths. It's just the dicking around I don't like.

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:

Superbone wrote: My understanding is that only the first year of Williams' deal is guaranteed.

Yep, that's what someone here said. Probably Carey.

I'm glad we aren't bidding against ourselves. There's not a big market for Len. But from his perspective, it's got to be a tough pill to swallow.

It would be nice for some team to jump in and give him a nice, low-ball, offer so he can sign, we can match, and be finished with all this. Sounds like the Suns opened actual negotiations with the QO--which is usually just a formality offer. They are waiting for a counter from the agent.

I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

O_Gardino wrote:
Yep, that's what someone here said. Probably Carey.

I'm glad we aren't bidding against ourselves. There's not a big market for Len. But from his perspective, it's got to be a tough pill to swallow.

It would be nice for some team to jump in and give him a nice, low-ball, offer so he can sign, we can match, and be finished with all this. Sounds like the Suns opened actual negotiations with the QO--which is usually just a formality offer. They are waiting for a counter from the agent.

I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:
It would be nice for some team to jump in and give him a nice, low-ball, offer so he can sign, we can match, and be finished with all this. Sounds like the Suns opened actual negotiations with the QO--which is usually just a formality offer. They are waiting for a counter from the agent.

I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

I could see them waiting this Kyrie situation out, seeing if they are included, as it seems the odds are that it's going to happen at some point. At that point, if they are still below the salary floor, they could offer him the gap to get to the salary floor and smooth things out with Len. I'm clearly speculating here though.

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:
It would be nice for some team to jump in and give him a nice, low-ball, offer so he can sign, we can match, and be finished with all this. Sounds like the Suns opened actual negotiations with the QO--which is usually just a formality offer. They are waiting for a counter from the agent.

I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

Yes. It's less than he made last year on his rookie deal. It's less than Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender will make this year.

Split T wrote:

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:

Split T wrote:
I'd just be fine if we renounced his rights. I really am not interested in bringing him back. I'd rather Alan Williams get his minutes. I guess if we salary dump Chandler on to someone he'd be ok to have, but Williams, Chandler, Len, Chriss, Bender, and Dudley is too many bigs that want minutes. Not to mention we might see Jackson or Warren play some small ball 4. Just let him go and wish him well. Maybe some other team will use him correctly and he'll have some success.

It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

Yes. It's less than he made last year on his rookie deal. It's less than Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender will make this year.

Oh, the horror!

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

JCSunsfan wrote:
It's too late to renounce his rights. There was a deadline for doing that.

As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

Yes. It's less than he made last year on his rookie deal. It's less than Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender will make this year.

Oh, the horror!

I'm not making a "he won't be able to feed his family" type comment here. Obviously 4 million dollars is a lot of money. My point is that it's barely anything compared to what he could make. He would be ok with us rescinding the offer because he's not depending on it. If he was unrestricted, someone would give him more than 4 million dollars to play basketball this year.

The qualifying offer for Len is actually $6,396,121

The Bobster wrote:The qualifying offer for Len is actually $6,396,121

I think that's what it would have been, but he didn't start enough games, so he got 4.2 million.

Split T wrote:

The Bobster wrote:The qualifying offer for Len is actually $6,396,121

I think that's what it would have been, but he didn't start enough games, so he got 4.2 million.

Yeah, that's what I understood.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1159883/ ... -williams/

qualifying offers of $4.2 million to Len and $1.7 million to Williams

Split T wrote:

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:

Superbone wrote:

Split T wrote:
As long as Len is ok with it, we can still do it. And 'm sure he'd be ok with it. The QO is barely anything. Or we can just tell teams we wont match and let Len find a better deal or sign the qualifying offer.

Wow. 4+ million for an NBA season of basketball is barely anything these days?

Yes. It's less than he made last year on his rookie deal. It's less than Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender will make this year.

Oh, the horror!

I'm not making a "he won't be able to feed his family" type comment here. Obviously 4 million dollars is a lot of money. My point is that it's barely anything compared to what he could make. He would be ok with us rescinding the offer because he's not depending on it. If he was unrestricted, someone would give him more than 4 million dollars to play basketball this year.

Early into the Free agency season, when teams having their cap tied up on an offer to an UFA can be more than inconvenient, I would agree with you, but this late into the offseason, if your agent is not capable to find you an offer bigger than your QO, either you have an awful agent, or there is no market for you. We have to scratch every dollar on this QO from our current Cap number, limiting us from trading at full strength, so I can see the merit of keeping that cap number on a lower level with that maneuver in the meantime until aaaaalll those big offers starts to rain over your desk forcing you to match or let him leave, IF the Alex Len Market is over such QO.

I can see Alex's agent pulling a Rich Paul and demanding a number so high, than the FO just shrugged off, let the QO on the table and tell them to go find a similar deal out there. This lecture would also works along the lines of "We’re certainly open to discussing different scenarios (that makes sense), ultimately, is up to Alex and his agent (to get serious)".

Bottom line, when you are talented enough, or have shown enough flashes of what you can become, a QO is a formality either at 4 or 6 millions, because REAL negotiations starts when you either get your current team to go higher in money AND YEARS (key element that keeps teams from lowballing, QO's only gets you a ONE year bargain) or make them start dealing with matching a REAL offer from other team, something that up to today, both sides are still waiting for. We like to say that we shouldn't bid against ourselves, and now that we are actually avoiding it, we still get mad. On top of it, we are not messing with Joe Johnson 2.0, but with a semi busted former 5th pick, whom underperformed to the degree that his team was capable to box him in such precarious situation, where 2mill on the QO became a big deal.

https://twitter.com/TheMattPetersen/status/891331334857162753

Those stats seem pretty meaningless to me. Kyrie is a point guard, so his stats will not track with Booker's, since Booker is a shooting guard. Kyrie has way more assists/game than Booker, so a "touch" is more likely to lead to a pass/assist than just a point or shot.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Those stats seem pretty meaningless to me. Kyrie is a point guard, so his stats will not track with Booker's, since Booker is a shooting guard. Kyrie has way more assists/game than Booker, so a "touch" is more likely to lead to a pass/assist than just a point or shot.

I think Lebron was on that team with Kyrie wasn't he? Who else other than Booker could score on the Suns.

That is was bothers me more than anything about this team going forward.

It appeared that Watson encouraged Booker to shoot every time he got the ball. I love Booker as much as anyone but what I fell in love with was the unselfish share the ball player he was prior to Wooden putting in his game plan. That first year, prior to Watson, he took only shots that were available and he shot the ball at a high percentage while keeping it moving. I loved it. Then it appeared as though someone said we need a star so we force fed him. That started when Bledsoe and Knight went down. He took far too many bad and forced shots last year. It really needs to stop if we ever are going to be a team.

We probably should not acquire Kyrie, due to the coach we currently have in place, he has no clue. However the draft is loaded at the top next summer so we probably should keep Watson in place so that we can be sure to get a high lottery pick again next summer. It is becoming our most exciting annual event, sad.

I don't think if we get Kyrie that he actually gets us that many more wins or changes our position in the league dramatically next year. So I think we'll still have a relatively high lottery selection. But, I do think having a backcourt of Irving and Booker starts to get us in the conversation as an attractive destination for free agents.

wpmiller42 wrote:I don't think if we get Kyrie that he actually gets us that many more wins or changes our position in the league dramatically next year. So I think we'll still have a relatively high lottery selection. But, I do think having a backcourt of Irving and Booker starts to get us in the conversation as an attractive destination for free agents.

Not unless we seriously change our offense. Ain't any shots for anyone else on an Irving-Booker squad. Ain't any defense being played either.

carey wrote:

wpmiller42 wrote:I don't think if we get Kyrie that he actually gets us that many more wins or changes our position in the league dramatically next year. So I think we'll still have a relatively high lottery selection. But, I do think having a backcourt of Irving and Booker starts to get us in the conversation as an attractive destination for free agents.

Not unless we seriously change our offense. Ain't any shots for anyone else on an Irving-Booker squad. Ain't any defense being played either.

Is Watson even capable of running a Houston/GS type offense? I just felt his coaching tanked the season last year as much as anything did. I don't hate him, but I want better, but do I really this season, hmmm?

In2ition wrote:

carey wrote:

wpmiller42 wrote:I don't think if we get Kyrie that he actually gets us that many more wins or changes our position in the league dramatically next year. So I think we'll still have a relatively high lottery selection. But, I do think having a backcourt of Irving and Booker starts to get us in the conversation as an attractive destination for free agents.

Not unless we seriously change our offense. Ain't any shots for anyone else on an Irving-Booker squad. Ain't any defense being played either.

Is Watson even capable of running a Houston/GS type offense? I just felt his coaching tanked the season last year as much as anything did. I don't hate him, but I want better, but do I really this season, hmmm?

I don't care what anyone says, I wish we would have gone after Mike D'Antoni again.

iLLmatic wrote:

In2ition wrote:

carey wrote:

wpmiller42 wrote:I don't think if we get Kyrie that he actually gets us that many more wins or changes our position in the league dramatically next year. So I think we'll still have a relatively high lottery selection. But, I do think having a backcourt of Irving and Booker starts to get us in the conversation as an attractive destination for free agents.

Not unless we seriously change our offense. Ain't any shots for anyone else on an Irving-Booker squad. Ain't any defense being played either.

Is Watson even capable of running a Houston/GS type offense? I just felt his coaching tanked the season last year as much as anything did. I don't hate him, but I want better, but do I really this season, hmmm?

I don't care what anyone says, I wish we would have gone after Mike D'Antoni again.

Yeah, I'm with you.