Phx-Suns.Net

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:58 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:24 am

Split T wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:05 am

I think that team is pretty good and well balanced. Think the 4th and 5th starters could be any of the top 9(Oso isn’t starting). I went with Grayson for the shooting, but Dunn for defense makes sense. Royce a mix of the two. Can keep Tyus if you feel we need a pg…I don’t with Booker and Jimmy out there. Could even start Portis(in place of Richards or alongside him if you want to go super big).

If Tyus goes to Miami in the trade, just put Morris in at the backup 1.

Ok ok where we sending Royce to after that because he damn sure ain't on this team if we want to win. Have to trim the stupid

Poor Royce is Saucy's target this season. Sorry, O'Neale. It always has to be somebody. You're it for some reason.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:11 am

Cuban won a championship and his team has been competitive almost every year.

The Cuban that one a championship was very different than during his first several years of ownership. That's where the Ishbia comparison comes in. Cuban started off just chasing names like Nick Van Excel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison; paying high dollar for guys that were exiting their prime and just throwing teams together with a bunch of names. You knocked the OKC teams that weren't serious about winning with Westbrook; those Mavs teams were essentially the same, not real threats to actually contend.

By the time the Mavs won a championship, they did it with an actual team. Dirk was the only real star, and he was surrounded by supporting cast that had depth, the pieces fit, they built chemistry, they played defense, they hustled. That's not the kind of team Ishbia is looking to build; he isn't really looking to build a team at all.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:11 am

New Orleans is a perfect example of rebuild and get nowhere after all those years.

You're just throwing stuff at the wall now. New Orleans has had massive injuries to just about every player they acquire. They weren't stuck in a rebuilding cycle. Anthony Davis (who kept getting injured) forced his way out. New Orleans got back high level talent, not just picks. Brandon Ingram turned into a stud, but he can't stay on the court. They traded for CJ McCollum. They've traded for Dejounte Murray. They traded for Jonas Valanciunas. New Orleans is far from an the example of what you're speaking against. They haven't been just hoping for draft picks. They've just made bad coaching decisions and can never stay healthy.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:59 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:40 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:12 am

Spoiler: show/hide

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:30 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 am

This is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.

Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?

This is the extreme argument I've seen from just about every local media/fan account and I don't get it. It doesn't have to be feast or famine. It's not title or tank. There is a way to build properly and competitively, which we just did a few years ago. It feels like people are making this "either/or" to protect Ishbia for some weird reason. He's acting no different than Allen, Cuban, Dolan, Prokherov, Ballmer when they came into the league. "We should be on our hands and knees thanking Ish for spending like this and shouldn't take it for granted". I'd rather an owner spend wisely and build a properly balanced team that's competitive for the long haul. Maybe we'll get there after this current run.

Interesting.

I don't see why my take is so extreme. If we had a poll here right now, I believe the majority would be in favor of trading KD and essentially "blowing it up". Is that not the literal definition of "extreme"; completely turning over the roster in the middle of a season?

I think we should be thankful for these guys running the franchise. They're not perfect by any means, but are you really that forgetfully about where we've been as a fanbase? Is Ishbia not allowed to try his strategy after spending billions? Sure we hope he learns best practices over years of experience as an owner. Were you perfect at your job right from the start? Would you have been if you were the owner?

I don't mean to attack you at all. In fact, I welcome the passion of longtime fans like you and others. I think the message I want to convey is calm down. It may seem weird, but I think we're in a better place now than we were in 2021 as an organization. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

What I've seen in most arguments is that if you trade KD, you have to trade Book and that will necessitate 5 years of tanking and losing and praying for picks and young players to pan out. I'm not advocating for that and I don't think that's the only other option besides going "all in".

I don't think trading KD for picks and young players is "blowing it up". I think it's a reloading around Book that can get us back to being a young and up and coming team on the rise in a year or two, similar to where we were in the Bubble. I think that's realistic and feasible. And with Book on the roster, it will lead to others wanting to join, same as CP and KD. That's why it's important to keep a cornerstone like Book around.

Ishibia can do whatever he wants. It's his team and his money. But he's going by the "New Owner" playbook step by step and I've noted the other new owners who have tried what he's done and been unsuccessful. He literally bought a Finals team and moved it backwards by acquiring stars and spending unnecessarily. Stars don't equal titles and a high payroll doesn't equal success. It may work, but it doesn't seem to be the best strategy in today's NBA. Having the highest payroll and luxury tax for a 2nd round team won't impress me and I won't be grateful for an owner who simply has the money to pay for it. I'll be grateful for an owner willing to pay the right players at the right time who are part of a winning formula.

If we were on the cusp and needed the boost from a guy like Jimmy, I'd be all for it. If we had a fun, exciting team with good young players and vibes, I'd be excited. But this team is just a bunch of guys thrown together with no chemistry.

There in lies the crux of my point; this shit isn't easy. Just trade this guy or that guy and "build around Booker" fantastical.

I think KD is great, I'm probably his biggest supporter registered on this site, but I'd drop him in a second for Amen Thompson, a role player and some draft picks. But you and anyone who is honest really knows why that hasn't happened -- it's not possible. But I don't think that's an excuse to completely give up hope as a fan.

As for your other points, carry on with the "if I were owner" stuff", there's no refuting that. If I had wheels for legs I'd be a bicycle.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:03 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:57 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:50 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:17 am

Com'on, Amen Thompson is fantastic. In a salary cap-free league, sure it's possible, but they'd have to give up so much more in salary to make it work that it's clearly impossible.

Huh? Steven Adams/Dillon Brooks/Amen Thompson for Durant. That deal works under the cap.

I just don't think Houston would be willing to give up Amen Thompson. Maybe in a Book deal, but not in a Durant deal.

Cool. Thanks for supporting my point regarding the complexity of building around Booker with a KD trade.

It's only complex if you go the arbitrary rule that Amen Thompson is the only path to success.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:21 am

No one asked you Wally.

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:05 am

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:41 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 am

pickle wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 am

We definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.

However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.

I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.

This is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.

Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?

We’re still on the “Ishbia won’t let it happen” thing?

Cap's twitching again, someone ctrl+alt+del him.


Nobody is saying he won't fail. Everyone is saying he is not going to sit on his hands. They have been incredibly creative and proactive to try and turn the tide.

He is married to the idea of KD. Stop whining about it. I fucking hate it too and want this molding aging soft superstar gone, but it is what it is. He invested heavily in him and he's going to exhaust all resources to try and make it work. In that context, you have to applaud the effort to continue to maneuver gloriously along the extreme restrictions that are in place to make this team competitive.

I have no doubt that he will continue to be active and when the time comes and it's obvious to HIM at that point as an owner that his efforts are futile, he will be creative and actively shifting to build toward a NEW competitive roster.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:50 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:17 am

Com'on, Amen Thompson is fantastic. In a salary cap-free league, sure it's possible, but they'd have to give up so much more in salary to make it work that it's clearly impossible.

Huh? Steven Adams/Dillon Brooks/Amen Thompson for Durant. That deal works under the cap.

I just don't think Houston would be willing to give up Amen Thompson. Maybe in a Book deal, but not in a Durant deal.

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:08 am

I'd take Jabari Smith and Reed Sheppard in a heartbeat.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:07 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:05 am

Cap wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 8:41 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:32 am

pickle wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:10 am

We definitely are in a fairly hopeless state right now.

However, I'm still thrilled that we pulled a rabbit out of a hat like that. Did we sacrifice some potential future possibilities? We absolutely did. But we also did create chances for the next few years that we otherwise wouldn't have had at all.

I think the most crippling thing right now is the 2nd apron, and of course there's no guarantee that we can get below it if we are constantly chasing second or third max stars and paying them said maxes. But if we ever do get under it, the creativity that this front office has managed over the last couple of years has me cautiously optimistic that we can maybe at least remain in the lower seed playoff hunt with our current dearth of picks.

This is why I don't entirely grasp the rampant pessimism or some of the Ishbia slander.

Mat Ishbia didn't buy a basketball team to tank. Clearly he can't buy a championship (because no one really can in this NBA), but to think he's just going to sit back and accept sucking for one or several years is being selectively tone deaf. As far as I can tell, he will always try to put a competitive product on the court with the goal of winning a title. Why are people so bitter about that?

We’re still on the “Ishbia won’t let it happen” thing?

Cap's twitching again, someone ctrl+alt+del him.


Nobody is saying he won't fail. Everyone is saying he is not going to sit on his hands. They have been incredibly creative and proactive to try and turn the tide.

He is married to the idea of KD. Stop whining about it. I fucking hate it too and want this molding aging soft superstar gone, but it is what it is. He invested heavily in him and he's going to exhaust all resources to try and make it work. In that context, you have to applaud the effort to continue to maneuver gloriously along the extreme restrictions that are in place to make this team competitive.

I have no doubt that he will continue to be active and when the time comes and it's obvious to HIM at that point as an owner that his efforts are futile, he will be creative and actively shifting to build toward a NEW competitive roster.

I love you too, Saucy.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:17 am

ShelC wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:07 am

You don't know it's not possible anymore than I know it is possible. We don't know if they even made a call. I would guess a call hasn't been made to the Rockets because trading KD is a non-starter for the Suns. They're not entertaining all possibilities because a reset isn't a possibility for ownership.

And I never said I gave up hope as a fan. I'm unhappy with the current direction and strategy of the org. Big difference.

I'm also not carrying on as if I were owner. I'm pointing out specific instances where this hasn't worked out for previous new owners and think our new guy should learn from those situations.

Com'on, Amen Thompson is fantastic. In a salary cap-free league, sure it's possible, but they'd have to give up so much more in salary to make it work that it's clearly impossible.

I'm glad you haven't given up hope. I guess all I want is a little less gloom from fans who I know where we've been.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:11 am

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:08 am

I'd take Jabari Smith and Reed Sheppard in a heartbeat.

So an underperforming 3rd year player who's expecting a max extension despite not showing that return value and a 3rd overall pick who's only performed in the G-League.

Sounds like just as much of a risk as going with the old guys KD and Butler to me.

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:04 am

Keep fighting the good fight, FF. I for one appreciate it. All takes can't be doom and gloom but that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

Wally_West wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:21 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:08 am

specialsauce wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:07 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:05 am

SunsSince92 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:03 am

This season? I very much doubt that. Culturally so much has to change for that to happen, Butler/Portis need to get up to speed and chemistry needs to be developed. Throwing it all together rarely works and has even less chance mid season. Next year, assuming everyone stays healthy, you have a chance, but teams like the Thunder and Cavs are only going to get stronger.

I sincerely disagree.

Remember when the Suns were crushing the league and won 64 games? How'd that turn out?

The playoffs are not the NBA season.

Bruh, the Cavs are first or second round fodder waiting to happen. That team has regular season trophy written all OVER it. I'll bet anything you want. If the Cavs make it to the finals I'll delete my account for you.

IDK why you're quoting me. I agree.

I disagree with both of you. I think the Cavs scream regular season team to me, remember the 64 win suns team? How that work out?

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:13 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:04 am

Keep fighting the good fight, FF. I for one appreciate it. All takes can't be doom and gloom but that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

If Ishbia spending money wheelin' and dealin' is enough for a fan, that's fine. I just don't think it needs to turn into the Gloom Police, although we always reach that point on this site.

I feel like we're all eating at a fancy restaurant and the food doesn't taste good, but there is a group telling us we should just appreciate the ambiance.

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:34 am

Kryptonic wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:32 am

All the Jimmy Butler trade latest
What the Suns’ Tuesday night trade means for Butler’s future in Miami

https://marcstein.substack.com/p/all-th ... ade-latest

Not your fault, but care to post the text that otherwise requires a paid sub?

INFORMER wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:13 am

Superbone wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:04 am

Keep fighting the good fight, FF. I for one appreciate it. All takes can't be doom and gloom but that seems to be the modus operandi around here.

If Ishbia spending money wheelin' and dealin' is enough for a fan, that's fine. I just don't think it needs to turn into the Gloom Police, although we always reach that point on this site.

I feel like we're all eating at a fancy restaurant and the food doesn't taste good, but there is a group telling us we should just appreciate the ambiance.

Kryptonic wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:56 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:34 am

Kryptonic wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:32 am

All the Jimmy Butler trade latest
What the Suns’ Tuesday night trade means for Butler’s future in Miami

https://marcstein.substack.com/p/all-th ... ade-latest

Not your fault, but care to post the text that otherwise requires a paid sub?

I just snagged the headline and shared it…. Didn’t realize it needed a sub, my bad.

Democritus wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 22, 2025 9:56 am

Too much activity today in this board. Are we getting Butler any time soon?