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Preseason @ L.A. Lakers WIN 98-94

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Wed, Oct 26th vs. Sacramento 10:00 PM EST
Fri, Oct 28th @ Oklahoma City 8:00 PM EST
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Suns Stories

McDonough had to make tough calls to set roster: http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /92709208/

Tucker scrimmages in practice, could play in opener: http://arizonasports.com/story/875316/s ... in-opener/

Derrick Jones Jr. takes unexpected detour to Suns: http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /91919078/

Bickley, "The new youthful, interesting Suns." http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /92526532/

Eddie House with Kellan Olson for the Suns Locked On podcast covering Goodwin's release:

Once you get to the 10 minute mark Eddie goes in on Alex Len and how awful he's been. He doesn't see the Suns staying with him past this season, and he believes Alex is a candidate to be moved mid-season. Check out his pre-season numbers: 15-42 for 35.7% from the field, 14-23 from FT for 60.8%, 9.6 ppg and 6.4 rpg. I've suggested the Suns could be the same exact team with Alan Williams taking all of Len's minutes as the backup to Chandler. It's likely hyperbole, but the fact that I thought it worries me.

Thanks for doing this Carey.

It's very sad that we failed in those two picks. So now we need a big man again...? Is there some price point at which you'd be willing to keep Len? He's still useful as a first big off the bench for the right price, no?

pickle wrote:Thanks for doing this Carey.

It's very sad that we failed in those two picks. So now we need a big man again...? Is there some price point at which you'd be willing to keep Len? He's still useful as a first big off the bench for the right price, no?

$8M maybe? I think the problem, for me at least, is that I don't think he contributes to winning games. So why keep him around at any price? Chandler isn't a long term solution so we may be in the market for a big man. It is possible that they're going to give Alex more time, but with Goodwin being waived I don't think Len should be asking himself for whom the bell tolls...

Agreed. I just think that he's serviceable if we consider him a back up... If he's not targeting 30+ minutes he can be more aggressive and become a far better rim protector than he's shown over the past year or so. And he wouldn't have to work on that awful post up game of his, maybe focus on that little 15 footer and serve in a niche bench role instead. I'd take him for 8 mil a year in the current climate for sure.

pickle wrote:Thanks for doing this Carey.

It's very sad that we failed in those two picks. So now we need a big man again...? Is there some price point at which you'd be willing to keep Len? He's still useful as a first big off the bench for the right price, no?

I don't think we failed with Archie. He was at the end of the first round, and he was always going to be a project. He didn't pan out, and that's usually how it goes. besides, there's nobody taken after him that I would want on the roster. Allen Crabbe? I'm ok without him.

Len, on the other hand, has a lot to live up to. There are 8ish guys drafted after him who are clearly better than him, and another 8 or so who are arguably better. 16 players drafted after him have played more minutes.

pickle wrote:Agreed. I just think that he's serviceable if we consider him a back up... If he's not targeting 30+ minutes he can be more aggressive and become a far better rim protector than he's shown over the past year or so. And he wouldn't have to work on that awful post up game of his, maybe focus on that little 15 footer and serve in a niche bench role instead. I'd take him for 8 mil a year in the current climate for sure.

Poor man's Bogut. He can do a little bit of everything, but don't ask him to do a lot of anything.

Big men can take a long time. I look at Robin Lopez, who has been a very serviceable NBA center, and we gave up on him a little too early. Len is still very young and is still learning. I don't see a ton of visible improvement yet, but I think that if we could get him to sign a somewhat modest deal, we should keep him around for another couple of years to see his progress. Guys with his skillset don't come along all that often.

I was the biggest guy in the Len camp from before the draft. I hope that with more patience, he pans out, but I have to be honest and don't think he will ever turn into the player I thought he could be. When I look back at it, I wanted Len, but I was tempted as hell at the time to trade down for multiple picks because I was intrigued by Gobert and the Greek Freak. I just liked the combination of players and felt like the Suns needed to kind of swing for the fences. Unfortunately, I wrong and right, just not in the correct order. :RIP LEN:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Big men can take a long time. I look at Robin Lopez, who has been a very serviceable NBA center, and we gave up on him a little too early. Len is still very young and is still learning. I don't see a ton of visible improvement yet, but I think that if we could get him to sign a somewhat modest deal, we should keep him around for another couple of years to see his progress. Guys with his skillset don't come along all that often.

What skill set? He's not terrible but he's just average to below average at everything. I thought he would be a block party monster after his first half season with us but then he stopped trying to block shots in the name of fundamental defense (which he isn't good at either.) He's got no post offense and you can tell by his FT% that the elbow jumper isn't going to be a weapon either. Again, this is year 4 not year 2. I just don't see it and I'm ready to move on I think.

I also think of Lopez and try to be a little more patient. Len has shown flashes. I'm not ready to give up yet. Would I rather have Gobert right now? Absolutely.

OK. At this point it doesn't matter where Len was picked. They just have to look at him for what he is and decided how they want to used him and what they want to pay him. If he can be a back up big man and they can pay him accordingly. Fine.

I would be willing to keep him for the right price. I think we could regret letting him go, but this it also a key moment given his contract status.

Let's split the risk, per example would Len be open to sign for 2 years at 5/6mill each? We have another two years to evaluate him for cheap, and if he is still the same old Len, we can either trade him or let him go in 2 years. If he goes Franchise Player on us, we max him out. We lose matching rights on this case, but we also prevent a 4 year comitment overpaying a stiff.

Aztec Sunsfan wrote:I would be willing to keep him for the right price. I think we could regret letting him go, but this it also a key moment given his contract status.

Let's split the risk, per example would Len be open to sign for 2 years at 5/6mill each? We have another two years to evaluate him for cheap, and if he is still the same old Len, we can either trade him or let him go in 2 years. If he goes Franchise Player on us, we max him out. We lose matching rights on this case, but we also prevent a 4 year comitment overpaying a stiff.

I would be in favor of that, but I doubt he will. I will be he can get a lot more for a lot longer.

carey wrote:

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Big men can take a long time. I look at Robin Lopez, who has been a very serviceable NBA center, and we gave up on him a little too early. Len is still very young and is still learning. I don't see a ton of visible improvement yet, but I think that if we could get him to sign a somewhat modest deal, we should keep him around for another couple of years to see his progress. Guys with his skillset don't come along all that often.

What skill set? He's not terrible but he's just average to below average at everything. I thought he would be a block party monster after his first half season with us but then he stopped trying to block shots in the name of fundamental defense (which he isn't good at either.) He's got no post offense and you can tell by his FT% that the elbow jumper isn't going to be a weapon either. Again, this is year 4 not year 2. I just don't see it and I'm ready to move on I think.

I don't think you are being fair to Len, and some of this is inaccurate. Nothing is worse than inaccuracy on the internet!

Year 4 hasn't started yet, so it can't be a disappointment yet.
You criticize his FT%, but that was at .728 last year, and it has improved each year he is in the league. .728 is pretty good for a big guy at this age. Kurt Thomas, who made a whole career out of the elbow jumper, shot .663 through his first 4 seasons, at ages 23-26.
Free throws, rebounds, and assists have all gone up year over year, and fouls have gone down.
Len is actually a pretty good rebounded. From his draft class, only Gobert is a better.
Len's best shot blocking year was his sophomore season (2014-15), and it wasn't bad. Len blocked 2.5 per 36 minutes, which is the exact same as Gobert blocked in 2015-2016. Maybe he would have blocked more shots if he wasn't playing PF and being told not to foul.
Also in 2014-15, when Len was not asked to create offense, he shot over 50% from the field.

Obviously, Len there are a handful of guys from that draft class we would all rather have. But it's silly to say or imply that Len isn't good at anything, or that he hasn't improved, or that he should be doing more with this much experience. He's not the star some folks hoped for, but he's not Anthony Bennett either.

JCSunsfan wrote:OK. At this point it doesn't matter where Len was picked. They just have to look at him for what he is and decided how they want to used him and what they want to pay him. If he can be a back up big man and they can pay him accordingly. Fine.

...and develop him into that player, instead of trying to develop him into a franchise center.

But I hope McD and the draft guys look back at that draft class and learn some lessons.

https://twitter.com/paulcoro/status/791016264189644800

Year 4 hasn't started yet, so it can't be a disappointment yet.
You criticize his FT%, but that was at .728 last year, and it has improved each year he is in the league. .728 is pretty good for a big guy at this age. Kurt Thomas, who made a whole career out of the elbow jumper, shot .663 through his first 4 seasons, at ages 23-26.
Free throws, rebounds, and assists have all gone up year over year, and fouls have gone down.
Len is actually a pretty good rebounded. From his draft class, only Gobert is a better.
Len's best shot blocking year was his sophomore season (2014-15), and it wasn't bad. Len blocked 2.5 per 36 minutes, which is the exact same as Gobert blocked in 2015-2016. Maybe he would have blocked more shots if he wasn't playing PF and being told not to foul.
Also in 2014-15, when Len was not asked to create offense, he shot over 50% from the field.

I am frustrated that Len isn't a top 5 player in his draft class, and maybe not even a top 10. I am frustrated that we used our highest pick in 30 years on him. But I am happy he is improving year over year. But he is likely what he will become, and won't get much better. He might get a better feel for the game. I think he can be effective as a backup center, in a lineup where he isn't needed to get offensive boards and can hit that 15-18 foot jumper. Maybe protect the rim a little. We need to use him as such.

carey wrote:https://twitter.com/paulcoro/status/791016264189644800

Oh, great

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Big men can take a long time. I look at Robin Lopez, who has been a very serviceable NBA center, and we gave up on him a little too early. Len is still very young and is still learning. I don't see a ton of visible improvement yet, but I think that if we could get him to sign a somewhat modest deal, we should keep him around for another couple of years to see his progress. Guys with his skillset don't come along all that often.

I agree. Lens preseason performance may be a blessing in disguise. If we can get a bargain price 4 year deal I think you jump on it. If they want middle of the road contract then you have to ask yourself how good a year is he going to have this year?

If I was negotiating with Lens agent I would base his value off of what we gave Tyson. In 14-15 season before we grabbed Tyson he averaged 10 points and 11 boards and 1 block in 30 mins a game. He has been an NBA defensive player of the year, All Star, and NBA Champion. We gave him around 13 mil per year on 4 years if you take the 52 mil we gave him and divide it by the years. Not sure how its structured.

Sure current pay climate is different so you may need to look at that as well but I feel like 4 years for 35Mil would be a good starting point for talks. I am not a contract expert but could a person set a contract up in a way that they could have a 35 mil base at 4 years with additional bonuses for achieving metrics that make the total contract 60 Mil?

Lens agent would not seem to have a bunch of leverage now and may be willing to work something out with us.

O_Gardino wrote:Year 4 hasn't started yet, so it can't be a disappointment yet.
You criticize his FT%, but that was at .728 last year, and it has improved each year he is in the league. .728 is pretty good for a big guy at this age. Kurt Thomas, who made a whole career out of the elbow jumper, shot .663 through his first 4 seasons, at ages 23-26.
Free throws, rebounds, and assists have all gone up year over year, and fouls have gone down.
Len is actually a pretty good rebounded. From his draft class, only Gobert is a better.
Len's best shot blocking year was his sophomore season (2014-15), and it wasn't bad. Len blocked 2.5 per 36 minutes, which is the exact same as Gobert blocked in 2015-2016. Maybe he would have blocked more shots if he wasn't playing PF and being told not to foul.
Also in 2014-15, when Len was not asked to create offense, he shot over 50% from the field.

Obviously, Len there are a handful of guys from that draft class we would all rather have. But it's silly to say or imply that Len isn't good at anything, or that he hasn't improved, or that he should be doing more with this much experience. He's not the star some folks hoped for, but he's not Anthony Bennett either.

I think he has regressed since '14-'15. His FG% per 36 dropped from 50 to 42 percent last year, his blocks dropped by half from 2.5 to 1.2. He did improve his FT shooting 2%. I just don't know. He seems thoroughly average to me. I'm glad there are people out there remaining hopeful.