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I think this holy war thing is stupid. I think America has been stupid in its war against terrorism. It reminds me of the war on drugs. If I were a Muslim living in the Mideast I would probably hate America for what it has done. We have been prying in their business for a long time because of oil. We pretended to attack Iraq because we wanted to protect ourselves from terrorism. It was all a scam to steal their oil. We failed at stealing their oil but, we did really piss of a lot of Muslims. Killing hundreds of thousands of them has that effect I suppose.

Now we have a leader openly declaring war on all Muslims and somehow thats supposed to help stop terrorism? Once again it will only inflame tensions and incite more violence. Is declaring war on billions of Muslims going to make America safer? IMO it will have to opposite effect. IMO it will only make it easier for Trump to declare actual war against some other oil rich Muslim nation leading to much more needless bloodshed.

ISIS isn't a religious movement, its a terrorist movement fueled by our actions IMO. A smart President would be joining with Muslims to fight ISIS. A dumb ass President can't tell the difference between regular Muslims and ISIS. Trump is a dumb ass President who is only going to increase the hate and violence and get a lot of people killed.

Islam is not a dangerous or violent religion. There are over one billion Muslims, and every group has extremists. Based on history one could call Christians an extremist hate group, too, given the number of various Christians who have done bad things in their God's name. But we know it would be silly to say such a thing. We should extend Muslims the same courtesy.

If you think Muslims are evil and that Islam is an evil religion, you are discriminating and hating a very large group of peaceful people.

I have Muslim students at Stanford. I have Muslim friends. They are good people. I assert that most folks who hate Muslims don't actually know one, nor do they actually tend to know very much about Islam as a faith.

It's similar to the racist thinking that some white folks have, where they decide all black people are "thugs" just because a black person commits a crime. And it's exactly as ridiculous. These same people generally have zero black friends and know very little about black culture.

Marty [Mori Chu] wrote:Islam is not a dangerous or violent religion.

where i live, there's an islamic separatist movement.

I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

In2ition wrote:I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

I live near a place called "Muslim Town"... walking distance (like your typical chinatown.)

SDC wrote:

In2ition wrote:I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

I live near a place called "Muslim Town"... walking distance (like your typical chinatown.)

...and?

Now we have a leader openly declaring war on all Muslims and somehow thats supposed to help stop terrorism? Once again it will only inflame tensions and incite more violence. Is declaring war on billions of Muslims going to make America safer? IMO it will have to opposite effect. IMO it will only make it easier for Trump to declare actual war against some other oil rich Muslim nation leading to much more needless bloodshed.

ISIS isn't a religious movement, its a terrorist movement fueled by our actions IMO. A smart President would be joining with Muslims to fight ISIS. A dumb ass President can't tell the difference between regular Muslims and ISIS. Trump is a dumb ass President who is only going to increase the hate and violence and get a lot of people killed.

Has he declared war on all Muslims or just ISIS? Obama tried to play nice with some Muslim countries (Iran) and it's empowered them. He tried pulling out of Iraq when his generals told him to leave troops there and ISIS formed and took over. It's easy to say we should just team up with Muslims to defeat ISIS but you know it's not that easy. There are governments at play here and those within the community who are also protecting friends and family members. Some friends and family members have even called the authorities to report on things they've seen and suspect, only to be ignored by our own FBI. I don't know that there's ever going to be an answer to this. While I think tighter immigration is needed all around (not just specific to Muslims), there are still those who are born and raised here or come here seeking a better life and end up becoming radicalized. We can stop immigration from all the Muslim countries and there will still be Muslims here who feel angry, ostracized, marginalized and threatened. How do you solve that? And while it's easy to point to Trump and say it's all his fault (as some are quick to do), this has been an ongoing issue for years. The Orlando shooter, San Bernadino, the Chelsea bombing, the Times Square bomber, Fort Hood shooter. No amount of extreme vetting will tell you someone's going to become radicalized 5 years down the road.

"Has he declared war on all Muslims or just ISIS?"

Declaring he will ban all Muslims from entering the US sends a very clear message to them. Muslims aren't welcome in our country.

"Obama tried to play nice with some Muslim countries (Iran) and it's empowered them."

The US, Russia, China, UK, Germany, France, etc. made a deal with Iran to stop their nuclear ambitions for at least a while. Iran hasn't liked the US for some time based on a lot of things. They have been empowered for decades.

"He tried pulling out of Iraq when his generals told him to leave troops there and ISIS formed and took over."

Bush signed the deal to leave Iraq before Obama was elected. Obama was elected and signed the same deal. We wanted to keep residual troops there but, Iraq would only allow that if we agreed to allow Iraqi courts to prosecute American soldiers for war crimes. No US President would ever allow that in any lifetime. No US General would ever want that either. That's when we pulled out. Republicans always leave out the details.

"It's easy to say we should just team up with Muslims to defeat ISIS but you know it's not that easy."

It isn't easy but, it's all in the propaganda. We keep annoncing our support for the Muslim m community to show them that we haven't declared war on them. ISIS recruits off of our anti Muslim stances. Trump wanting to ban all Muslims is a gift to ISIS.

"Some friends and family members have even called the authorities to report on things they've seen and suspect, only to be ignored by our own FBI."

I don't agree with that statement. I think the FBI has investigated people reported but, they can't arrest people if they haven't done anything wrong. I think thats Trump propaganda since he has declared war on every US government agency and everybody else for that matter.

"there are still those who are born and raised here or come here seeking a better life and end up becoming radicalized."

True. 99.9999% of the terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 have been home grown. Declaring war on Muslims and invading Muslim countries to steal their oil along with ISIS propaganda make home grown terrorists possible. Plus some of these guys lives turn bad and they get angry and decide to end their lives making a statement. There have been plenty of other non Muslim homegrown attacks by guys angry and distruaght that aren't labeled terrorists because they were just Americans who went over the edge. We don't start banning Americans.

My point is Trumps way is only going to make things worse, not better. We didnt stop people from making and consuming alcohol during the prohibition. We only creaed a group of gangs who controlled the illegal alcohol and terrorised anybody who got in their way. We didn't stop drugs by making them illegal. We only creted a group of gangs who controlled the illegal drugs and terrorized anybody who got in their way. We aren't going to stop terrorism by banning Muslims and invading their countries. We are only going to radicalize more of them.

Nodack wrote:"Has he declared war on all Muslims or just ISIS?"

Declaring he will ban all Muslims from entering the US sends a very clear message to them. Muslims aren't welcome in our country.

"Obama tried to play nice with some Muslim countries (Iran) and it's empowered them."

The US, Russia, China, UK, Germany, France, etc. made a deal with Iran to stop their nuclear ambitions for at least a while. Iran hasn't liked the US for some time based on a lot of things. They have been empowered for decades.

"He tried pulling out of Iraq when his generals told him to leave troops there and ISIS formed and took over."

Bush signed the deal to leave Iraq before Obama was elected. Obama was elected and signed the same deal. We wanted to keep residual troops there but, Iraq would only allow that if we agreed to allow Iraqi courts to prosecute American soldiers for war crimes. No US President would ever allow that in any lifetime. No US General would ever want that either. That's when we pulled out. Republicans always leave out the details.

"It's easy to say we should just team up with Muslims to defeat ISIS but you know it's not that easy."

It isn't easy but, it's all in the propaganda. We keep annoncing our support for the Muslim m community to show them that we haven't declared war on them. ISIS recruits off of our anti Muslim stances. Trump wanting to ban all Muslims is a gift to ISIS.

"Some friends and family members have even called the authorities to report on things they've seen and suspect, only to be ignored by our own FBI."

I don't agree with that statement. I think the FBI has investigated people reported but, they can't arrest people if they haven't done anything wrong. I think thats Trump propaganda since he has declared war on every US government agency and everybody else for that matter.

"there are still those who are born and raised here or come here seeking a better life and end up becoming radicalized."

True. 99.9999% of the terrorist attacks on the US since 9/11 have been home grown. Declaring war on Muslims and invading Muslim countries to steal their oil along with ISIS propaganda make home grown terrorists possible. Plus some of these guys lifes turn bad and they get angry and decide to end their lives making a statement. There have been plenty of other non Muslim homegrown attacks by guys angry and distruaght that aren't labeled terrorists because they were just Americans who went over the edge. We don't start banning Americans.

My point is Trumps way is only going to make things worse, not better. We didnt stop people from making and consuming alcohol during the prohibition. We only creaed a group of gangs who controlled the illegal alcohol and terrorised anybody who got in their way. We didn't stop drugs by making them illegal. We only creted a group of gangs who controlled the illegal drugs and terrorized anybody who got in their way. We aren't going to stop terrorism by banning Muslims and invading their countries. We are only going to radicalize more of them.

Thank you for focusing on the details.

You're welcome.

Didn't Trump back off on his ridiculous declaration of a temporary ban on all Muslims coming in? I believe that nearly everyone around him told him that was an outrageous statement.

In2ition wrote:Didn't Trump back off on his ridiculous declaration of a temporary ban on all Muslims coming in? I believe that nearly everyone around him told him that was an outrageous statement.

Pretty sure his Chief Strategist did not share that sentiment with him.

SDC wrote:

In2ition wrote:I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

I live near a place called "Muslim Town"... walking distance (like your typical chinatown.)

What exactly is your point here SDC? Just come out and say it.

The term "radicalized" is a bunch of right wing propaganda bullshit. It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of REGION. A region in which the US has destabilized nations and broken up families which obviously is going to create a lot of animosity towards us. We have a few bad apples here and there murder a handful of Americans on US soil and look at the ignorant fucks here that jump to conclusions and immediately hate all muslims. Multiply that number of casualties in the Middle East by 1000 and see what kind of anger it causes.

There's nothing that irritates me more than this term that he got "radicalized." What, is there some super advanced machine where you go in as a normal person, get electrocuted and come out as Muslim Darth Vader? A bunch of racist right wing bullshit.

specialsauce wrote:

SDC wrote:

In2ition wrote:I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

I live near a place called "Muslim Town"... walking distance (like your typical chinatown.)

What exactly is your point here SDC? Just come out and say it.

The term "radicalized" is a bunch of right wing propaganda bullshit. It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of REGION. A region in which the US has destabilized nations and broken up families which obviously is going to create a lot of animosity towards us. We have a few bad apples here and there murder a handful of Americans on US soil and look at the ignorant f*** here that jump to conclusions and immediately hate all muslims. Multiply that number of casualties in the Middle East by 1000 and see what kind of anger it causes.

There's nothing that irritates me more than this term that he got "radicalized." What, is there some super advanced machine where you go in as a normal person, get electrocuted and come out as Muslim Darth Vader? A bunch of racist right wing bullshit.

Isn't Islam a religion and not a race? If I'm correct it spans many different races, no? I'm not trying to push your buttons or trolling you, just seeking clarification.

In2ition wrote:

specialsauce wrote:

SDC wrote:

In2ition wrote:I have many Muslim coworkers and close friends. They are great people. I also know many people that claim to be Christians that I would never want to spend a moment with. We should be judged by the content of our character. This guy, I'm going out on a limb here, not a good dude.

I live near a place called "Muslim Town"... walking distance (like your typical chinatown.)

What exactly is your point here SDC? Just come out and say it.

The term "radicalized" is a bunch of right wing propaganda bullshit. It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of REGION. A region in which the US has destabilized nations and broken up families which obviously is going to create a lot of animosity towards us. We have a few bad apples here and there murder a handful of Americans on US soil and look at the ignorant f*** here that jump to conclusions and immediately hate all muslims. Multiply that number of casualties in the Middle East by 1000 and see what kind of anger it causes.

There's nothing that irritates me more than this term that he got "radicalized." What, is there some super advanced machine where you go in as a normal person, get electrocuted and come out as Muslim Darth Vader? A bunch of racist right wing bullshit.

Isn't Islam a religion and not a race? If I'm correct it spans many different races, no? I'm not trying to push your buttons or trolling you, just seeking clarification.

Okay so not racist, a bunch of prejudiced, bigoted, ignorant, hateful, etc.

Really man? Out of all that, the misnomer between racist and prejudiced is what you choose to acknowledge?

specialsauce wrote:Really man? Out of all that, the misnomer between racist and prejudiced is what you choose to acknowledge?

Regional, I think I see where you're going, but I don't understand how Regional explains many of the terrorists. BTW, I don't think you are wrong in saying that the US has been the culprit in destabilizing countries and breaking up families. It would be folly to think that didn't happen. Look at what happened in Libya for instance.

In2ition wrote:

specialsauce wrote:Really man? Out of all that, the misnomer between racist and prejudiced is what you choose to acknowledge?

Regional, I think I see where you're going, but I don't understand how Regional explains many of the terrorists. BTW, I don't think you are wrong in saying that the US has been the culprit in destabilizing countries and breaking up families. It would be folly to think that didn't happen. Look at what happened in Libya for instance.

Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt.. there's no coincidence that the people in these countries have an animosity towards the US after the physical and economic hardship we have directly caused them.

It in turn breeds- mostly in the low IQ, most embarrassing sect of citizens in the US- a misconception that incorrectly ties the attacks to religion, which then provides more ammo for these fake religious terrorist organizations to use as evidence that the US is at war with Islam. This becomes a cycle.

ISIS uses false propaganda to say that the US is at war with Islam the same way the KKK uses it to defend white supremacy.

Saudi Arabia is in this region, and many of the fundamentalist schools have come out of there. I think many of the 911 attackers came from there and were also upper class to upper middle-class families that didn't have physical or economic hardships. I'm not aware of the hardships that have occurred in Saudi Arabia. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, I'm certainly not a middle eastern scholar by any means. And, we've had some American suburban white kids that also joined in too, I think. That doesn't seem Regional.